PSA: There Are Many Kinds of Feminism

marina

Tue, Jul 11 2017, 11:04 pm

Some people like to think that all feminists speak with one voice, but that's completely false.

Millions of people have very diverse viewpoints. Here are some examples:

Pro-life feminists: http://www.feministsforlife.org/

Pro-Trump feminists: https://www.facebook.com/feministsfortrump/

Modern Orthodox feminists: https://www.jofa.org/

This was a service brought to you by the Secret Imamother Society of The More You Know.

Last edited by marina on Tue, Jul 11 2017, 11:08 pm; edited 2 times in total

youngishbear

Tue, Jul 11 2017, 11:50 pm

There are also chassidish feminists.

Defining features of my particular brand:

* We don't drive, nor do we necessarily want to
* We are fine behind a mechitzah (as long as we can see what's going on on the other side)
* We keep the halachos and chumros of modesty we were raised with

Our goals:
* We ask for respect for our individuality as humans first, females second
* We ask for the right to choose our career and family combination
* We ask for the right to call ourselves feminists without being labeled derogatory names

P.S. We don't have a website or social media presence. Obviously.

amother

Ginger

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 12:10 am

youngishbear wrote:

I've always wondered about the above - if people are truly fine with the above or not. From my experiences, it generally seems that people are ok with the above only if everyone else in their communities or groups follows suit. If the above mentioned choices were considered to be optional, how many of the diehard defenders would actually continue with these restrictions.

If the leaders of those communities would put forth that driving is allowed, but not driving is still preferable and more 'holy', there would be a good many that would start driving regardless. Would these very same defenders of the restrictions still remain steadfast in these beliefs or is it only dependent if everyone else has to abide by them. Would you still be the same proud of "I don't drive" and have the same conviction "I don't necessarily want to?" when others around them are doing just that?

To me, the quotes "we are fine", "we don't want to" and so on appear to be a passive defense mechanism to avoid the unpleasantness of it. I'm not saying it applies to all, but it does apply to many.

youngishbear

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 12:26 am

amother wrote:

There are many kinds of feminism, and not all of them include driving on their to-do list.

Your post may be true, or not, whatever, but it is irrelevant in this thread.

FranticFrummie

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 8:55 am

Yep. I'm a choice-feminist. I do what I choose, including living a very traditional 50's housewife style life. Women can choose to work 60 hours a week at a job they love, while putting their kids in day care full time or having a live-in nanny. It's all valid.

I can be against misogyny and rape culture, without being a man hater. I can believe in gay marriage, without getting gay-married. Culturally liberal, fiscally conservative, my opinion on the election was 51% for Trump, 49% for Hillary (tough call, in my book.)

youngishbear

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 10:14 am

amother wrote:

I was just using driving as an example, but it applies to all other restrictions as well.

I apologize for inserting this in this thread.

I'm sorry if I came across harsh... I thought this thread was supposed to highlight people's unique take on feminism, especially when it goes against popular assumptions. You'd assume a feminist would be outraged at not being allowed to drive, right?

I happen to believe the socially imposed lack of choice in the matter is unfair and clearly not feminist, but I ask for respect for my choices as an individual within the society I choose to live in, even if they don't conform to all the larger goals of the movement. I don't focus on driving as a feminist issue in my circles because I feel the bigger goal is to change underlying ideas and attitudes.

Also, as a city girl with an MTA card and uber pool at my beck and call, not to mention an abysmal lack of hand-eye coordination, I am completely disinterested in dealing with traffic, parking, car maintenance, car payments, insurance, repairs, flat tires, traffic cops, parking meters, and gas prices.

But you would say I'm only telling myself this to make myself feel better about my lack of choice in the matter. Maybe. Or maybe it doesn't matter enough in my life on a practical level.

amother

Ginger

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 10:35 am

youngishbear wrote:

I'm sorry if I came across harsh... I thought this thread was supposed to highlight people's unique take on feminism, especially when it goes against popular assumptions. You'd assume a feminist would be outraged at not being allowed to drive, right?

I happen to believe the lack of choice in the matter is unfair and clearly not feminist, but I ask for respect for my choices within the society I choose to live in, even if they don't conform to all the larger goals of the movement.

Also, as a city girl with an MTA card and uber pool at my beck and call, not to mention an abysmal lack of hand-eye coordination, I am completely disinterested in dealing with traffic, parking, car maintenance, car payments, insurance, repairs, flat tires, traffic cops, parking meters, and gas prices.

But you would say I'm only telling myself this to make myself feel better about my lack of choice in the matter. Maybe. Or maybe it doesn't matter enough in my life on a practical level.

I'm not sure if I should respond or not, as I really have no interest in derailing the thread. But I'll proceed anyways Smile

.

Again, I was only using driving as an example. Your personal take on it is practical and not religious, I was referring to the religious aspect of it. Secondly, my statement applied to all of the rules as an entirety. While you may not have issues with some of the rules, would you still be so staunch with your beliefs with restrictions that you do have issues with - when others in your immediate surroundings are not being restricted in a similar manner?

Based on my experiences, (and I've had a large exposure), people will staunchly defend their restrictions so not to feel the negativity of it or feel oppressed in any way. But when given the chance to drop those very same restrictions, many (not all) will do so, or actually have done so, in a heartbeat. And they only way they can continue placating themselves, is if everyone else around them is forced to do the same. If one truly believes that a skirt should be a certain length, why not just wear it instead of forcing everyone around to follow suit?

Ruchel

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 10:42 am

I happen to agree with you. Except I have been bashed and called un-feminist so often I now find it simpler not to identify as such except with those who relate.

I'm pro BABIES, don't want a career, very happy behind a normal mechitza and also have no problem giving a mixed shiur. I have zero desire to do man stuff. I don't feel bad because I do woman stuff, because I believe we are equals and giving us the same obligations would be awfully unfair. I live by equal but different and love my place in my community. I like choosing when I feel like going to shul, davening except the Shema, participating to whatever event. I never push my daughters to shul. BH my 10 year old loves going and actually prefers the charedi place - oh my, so oppressed.

amother

Ginger

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 10:48 am

Ruchel wrote:

Nothing personal to anyone - But can people see past themselves? I'm so happy that you are ok with your options and I'm sure there are many more people that are happy as well. But can it be understood that there are plenty of OTHER people out there that are NOT happy with their limited options? Their chemistry, biological makeup or other details are different than yours. They have different desires and needs. Therefore, the limited options provided to them cannot fulfill them, hence it IS a form of oppression.

marina

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 11:47 am

youngishbear wrote:

This is fine and there definitely are chassidish women who identify as feminists.

But I'm curious whether you draw the line and, if so, how you do it. How far down the spectrum do we take this acceptance? Are we also on board with fundamentalist Muslim women who identify as feminists? They cover their entire bodies, leaving slits for the eyes. They do not leave the house without a chaperone, etc. And sister wives in that community and in some Mormon ones. I am sure at least some will tell you that this is their choice and we need to respect it as a right just like the ones you cite.

And the other end of the spectrum as well. I personally know people who think that prostitution/[filth] is a feminist vocation and that 5ex work is unfairly seen as degrading to women who are not respected for their choices.

Which is all fine. But I am curious as to where you draw the line. Is there a point where a person's insistence that their actions comport with feminism and deserve that sort of respect of their rights, is there a point where you don't agree with that? Don't believe them?

Please know that I am not doubting what you wrote or comparing you to a hooker LOL

I'm just genuinely interested in how people draw these lines.

For me personally, I'm not sure how I draw the line. I guess I try to think if the people in that community have meaningful choice. Which to me would be an analysis of how dire are the consequences for not complying. But that's a flawed analysis because that includes too many people- if you leave your frum community, there's always going to be a fall out, but I still think you have a choice. I dk.

marina

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 11:54 am

amother wrote:

Marina, so its; SISTMYK? Wink

We're still working on it. Maybe we could go with your suggestion, but pronounce it sistah-mike or systemic. I kind of like systemic. it goes with the theme.

Dk. Still working on it. On the agenda for our next secret meeting. Which will have snacks. That's one important point that we've decided so far.

Do you want to be part of our secret society? Esp since you're amother, that's already showing your dedication to secrecy!

Ruchel

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 12:00 pm

amother wrote:

I feel no need to support changes in my community, bringing unpleasantness on myself and other women who like it. Others are welcome to go somewhere else.