Kinesiology? | Imamother

imasoftov

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 5:54 am

amother wrote:

It does sound like hocus pocus and medical/scientific establishment doesn't have the technology to measure this form of a person's energy, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist and be accessed. 100 years ago someone would have told you internet and video calling were bogus too. People who call it quackery have not tried it.

It seems to me that a person who had never encountered the internet or video calling could design experiments to confirm or refute the claim that these work. Perhaps the same could be done here if we understood what was being claimed.

If someone said they have an internet method for "remotely accessing a person's energy", well first we'd have to understand what it means to do that without the internet. But if we want to test whether the internet can allow people to communicate over a distance, we could do that.

imasoftov

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 6:02 am

amother wrote:

Other modalities such as biomagnetic therapy or quantum energy techniques do not require the person to be present.

The experiment I want to perform here is to look for a negative correlation between people who believe in "quantum energy techniques" and people who know what quantum physics is.

Last edited by imasoftov on Thu, Jul 13 2017, 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total

imasoftov

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 6:11 am

rydys wrote:

How can someone assess someone's muscular energy without the person present? I can only think of one of three ways--through the Koach Hatahara (like a mekubal), the Koach Hatuma, or quackery.

Well I think I'd want to find out if a phenomenon actually existed (ruling out the third choice) before considering one of the first two. But then I'd also like to apply the scientific method to the first two choices. In the event that mekubalim have better things to do with their time than be tested, I'd be content to only test the second.

amother

Floralwhite

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 8:30 am

imasoftov wrote:

Are you serious about this?
Perhaps we can work together to test this out. If you are seriously thinking about conducting a study, let me know.

imasoftov

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 9:44 am

amother wrote:

Are you serious about this?
Perhaps we can work together to test this out. If you are seriously thinking about conducting a study, let me know.

I'm serious when I propose experiments, and when I say that experiments (not necessarily mine) should be performed. I also think that if there's anyone who ought to want them to be performed (or would be able to tell me about experiments already performed) it would be people who work in the field.

I do not propose to perform any of the experiments I design myself.

imasoftov

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 11:20 am

cnc wrote:

According to Rabbi Blumenkrantz's book these methods are assur.

I think I've identified the quote, found it here, from his 2005 Pesach guide.

Quote:

Whenever we wrote that homeopathic medications may be used is[sic] only if at least some of molecules[sic] from the original "medication" are still in existence in the dilution. But if the dilution is such that there is[sic] no molecules left from the "medicine"- then one would NOT be allowed to use it. See Below.

The blogger goes on to say that the reference ("See Below") is to 'an article dated Adar 5765, entitled Some Halachic Concerns Regarding "Alternative Health" by Rav Menachem Kelinman, author, Hisna'ari Mal'Ofor which points out the often forbidden roots of various alternative-healing practices, including homeopathy. The prohibitions involved relate to serious issues of Avodah Zarah, kishuf (sorcery) and k'fira.'

I wasn't able to find that article online, but just as I'm skeptical about the efficacy of alternative therapies, I'm also not convinced that they're Avodah Zarah, kishuf and k'fira.

I don't understand how something can be Avodah Zarah if it doesn't involve a false god.

If it doesn't work, is it kishuf? And even if it does, what if it's an instance of Clarke's Third Law ("Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"). Not that I suspect it of working without evidence.

Finally k'fira, I don't think either conventional or alternative medicine takes a position on whether God (or false gods) exist, positive or negative.

But I also don't know why the threshold should be some molecules of the purported medicine being in the dilution. There are dilutions that contain huge numbers of molecules of the medicine, but not enough to cause any effect. And the idea that dilution increases rather than decreases the potency is questionable. And the idea that "like cures like".

Maybe

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 12:27 pm

Not every Kinesiologist can do it without client present.

To prove that it works, you can test for food sensitivity & compare to results from a lab.

Another option would be, hold known toxin in concealed containers & pure water in the others see the result.

Or you can blindly trust these who scream quackery.

A nice seffer with endorsements from Rabbis across the spectrum, even very pro mainstream ones.

https://www.israelbookshoppubl.....4.htm

imasoftov

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 1:14 pm

Maybe wrote:

Doing that test a large number of times, with the kinesiologists having no other information about the patients, and comparing the results not just against lab results, but against the expected success rate if they were just guessing, would be a good test. Also the patients shouldn't know what they're holding. Maybe there are some other things that need to be hidden, perhaps there are some allergies more common among different ethnic groups than in others, so maybe we have to hide the test subjects from the kinesiologists. Cover them head to toe in fabric, don't let them speak, and don't let the kinesiologists know their names?

Toxins and allergens are not the same thing, so a demonstrated ability to detect the one would not say anything about the other, but testing for toxins vs water would be a good test for detecting toxins, and testing with allergens vs water would be a good test of detecting allergies. Again, compare to expected results by chance, and check that the containers are entirely indistinguishable.

Also randomize which order the samples are presented in, use the same hand for each (or a random hand, but them make sure the two randomizations are independent), make sure no one present knows which sample is which, the codes on the containers are random.

Get this into a peer-reviewed publication, have some independent teams replicate the results a few times, and then you've got something.

In a review of the book, Rabbi Yair Hoffman says "However, a careful reading of a number of the approbations clearly indicate that they do not necessarily agree with his conclusions." If I ever come across a copy of the book I'll look at the haskamot myself and post more.

imasoftov

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 1:19 pm

amother wrote:

R' Yair Hoffman must be following Imamother. https://www.theyeshivaworld.co......html

A quote from there 'A manual muscle test is conducted by having the patient resist using the target muscle or muscle group while the practitioner applies force the other way. A smooth response is called a “strong muscle” and a response that was not appropriate is called a “weak response.”' Sounds like something we could test with machines and then not have to worry that the practitioners are getting their information through some other method, even if they're not aware of it.

amother

Floralwhite

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 2:08 pm

imasoftov wrote:

Machines can't sense energy flow. I don't understand how it works, but I believe that this is not something that can be done by machines.