Kinesiology? | Imamother

cnc

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 2:47 pm

imasoftov wrote:

The blogger goes on to say that the reference ("See Below") is to 'an article dated Adar 5765, entitled Some Halachic Concerns Regarding "Alternative Health" by Rav Menachem Kelinman, author, Hisna'ari Mal'Ofor which points out the often forbidden roots of various alternative-healing practices, including homeopathy. The prohibitions involved relate to serious issues of Avodah Zarah, kishuf (sorcery) and k'fira.'

I wasn't able to find that article online, but just as I'm skeptical about the efficacy of alternative therapies, I'm also not convinced that they're Avodah Zarah, kishuf and k'fira.

I don't understand how something can be Avodah Zarah if it doesn't involve a false god.

If it doesn't work, is it kishuf? And even if it does, what if it's an instance of Clarke's Third Law ("Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"). Not that I suspect it of working without evidence.

Finally k'fira, I don't think either conventional or alternative medicine takes a position on whether God (or false gods) exist, positive or negative.

But I also don't know why the threshold should be some molecules of the purported medicine being in the dilution. There are dilutions that contain huge numbers of molecules of the medicine, but not enough to cause any effect. And the idea that dilution increases rather than decreases the potency is questionable. And the idea that "like cures like".

No. That's not what I saw. It was from a more recent edition and it was discussing different forms of energy and alternative healings. I don't have the book on me now but if anyone wants to look it up in a recent edition...

imasoftov

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 8:46 pm

amother wrote:

Machines can't sense energy flow. I don't understand how it works, but I believe that this is not something that can be done by machines.

Did R Hoffman misunderstand the Gale Encyclopedia of Alternative Medicine, is the encyclopedia wrong, or do some kinesiologists perform their sensing in different ways from others?

It seems to me that even if it could be confirmed that kinesiologists could diagnose allergies, that still would not demonstrate that they do it by sensing "energy flow". It wouldn't even demonstrate that such energy is a meaningful concept, or that it flows. Before an experiment could be designed to do that, the designer would have to understand what is meant by energy in this context.

Health is a Virture

Fri, Jul 14 2017, 3:42 am

I know a number of very big rabbis who hold that kinesiology is muttar if not done remotely the reason many rabbanim assur/have assured it is because if one doesn't know how something works then it could be assur because it is probably using ruach ha'tumah. I believe r' blumenkrantz also assurs homeopathy for this reason. However, I do know some big rabbis who mattur it (more sephardic rabbis just because sephardim are often more into alternathive therapies and perhaps the rabbanim understand it better?)

myself

Fri, Jul 14 2017, 5:19 am

Just to clarify, I just realized that the method we used was not kinesiology but rather dowsing. The practitioner we used was an honest and reliable Jewish guy and his diagnosis was pretty accurate. He has many years experience so we relied on him, but not everyone knows what they're doing so you gotta be careful.

amother

cornflower

Fri, Jul 14 2017, 7:43 am

I was in the ER awaiting surgery for a ruptured appendix when this volunteer came around. She picked up my hand and told me your problem is your nutrition. Eat a few almonds everyday and come see me and I will help you with your diet.
If I would have listened to her her advice I would have died.

amother

Lilac

Fri, Jul 14 2017, 9:17 am

Health is a Virture wrote:

So why don't the big Rabbi's learn how it works? The developers of these modalities explain their methods.
I dont understand your comment. Just because I don't know how something works, doesn't mean it's ruach hatumah. People have no idea why when they pop a pill, their symptoms get better. The pharmaceutical company has a rationale, but not the person taking it. That doesn't mean they are accessing ruach hatumah.

amother

Lilac

Fri, Jul 14 2017, 9:18 am

amother wrote:

Of course a quack is a quack...

amother

Floralwhite

Fri, Jul 14 2017, 9:32 am

amother wrote:

That's why you don't trust everyone and anyone. There are people in this practice who are not ethical.

amother

Floralwhite

Fri, Jul 14 2017, 9:39 am

amother wrote:

When it comes to pharmaceutical drugs, there is one way to teach it and one way to do it. Intention does not matter. So even if they titer the drug differently, or encapsulate it differently, either it is muttar or it is assur. Straight forward answer.

When it comes to working with energy (any eastern medicine approach) intention makes up a large portion of the therapy/healing process.

It's much easier to write everything off as assur, than to say that you can use this specific modality, but only through this teacher. If the practitioner has intention of anything other than God as the source of the healing, they may very well be doing Avoda Zara.

Again, if you do plan on trying this out, whatever your reasons, research the practitioner very well, and trust your gut. If something seems off, it may very well be off.

imasoftov

Fri, Jul 14 2017, 10:27 am

amother wrote:

It seems to me that the hospital might want to know that a volunteer was dispensing medical advice.

amother

Green

Fri, Jul 14 2017, 10:38 am

amother wrote:

Because the concepts you are talking about all stem from avoda Zara and that's a fact.

amother

Floralwhite

Fri, Jul 14 2017, 11:46 am

amother wrote:

Because the concepts you are talking about all stem from avoda Zara and that's a fact.

It's an interesting thing.
When the Torah tells the cohanim to bless the nation, they have to have a certain intention and spread their hands forward in a certain way. They direct this positive intention at the people through their hands.
Is that avoda Zara too? If not, why not?

imasoftov

Sat, Jul 15 2017, 6:09 pm

Green amother wrote:

Because the concepts you are talking about all stem from avoda Zara and that's a fact.

Floralwhite amother wrote:

This may not be correct. If you are seeking help from these sources, do your research.

Lilac amother wrote:

Yes. When a person tests muscle energy, the energy is NOT coming from avoda zara.

Green and Lilac, could you elaborate? Floralwhite, how should someone do research into whether a concept stems from avoda zara?

amother

Floralwhite

Sat, Jul 15 2017, 11:37 pm

imasoftov wrote:

Green and Lilac, could you elaborate? Floralwhite, how should someone do research into whether a concept stems from avoda zara?

Ask a rabbi that is well versed in the topic.

Read up on the sources collected in the book "alternative medicine in Halacha"

Speak to the rabbi's who are "giving haskamas" to certain practitioners and find out why they think it is okay.

Speak to rabbis who are against it and find out why.

Or you can learn what exactly avoda Zara entails nowadays, and then find out about each set of practices whether or not they fall into set category. Sort of what the author of the above referenced book attempted to accomplish.

Basically, ask a lot of questions to people knowledgeable in both the practice and the Halacha.

I'm sure there are other ways to research.