Kosher kitchen layout help keep meat and dairy seperate

amother

Papaya

Sun, Jul 16 2017, 4:11 pm

I'm remodeling the kitchen of an apartment I'm moving into.
I can't move the side where the plumbing and the 220 electric is on. I can move it anywhere on the same wall.
Basically that means that the 2 sinks and th 2 ranges need to be on the same side.
I have enough room for this.

Situation
DH and I do a lot of kiruv work. We invite people over all the time. Sometimes they may not know the intricate details of Kashrut. Sometimes guests help on the kitchen

Question
Is the sink enough to seperate the counter.
Is it enough for people not to put things down beyond the sink?

If no, I need an elegant idea to clearly delineate the boundaries.

I was thinking of
little counter - dairy range- bigger counter- dairy sink- very large counter - meat range - bigger counter - meat sink - little counter
All in a straight line.

amother

Babyblue

Sun, Jul 16 2017, 4:31 pm

You can put a little divider wall between dairy and meat sections, that way, if there is a splash of one or the other, the wall will catch it instead of it landing in a no-no zone. Also will make it easier for people to see the difference.

amother

Papaya

Sun, Jul 16 2017, 5:50 pm

amother wrote:

Do you mean a lip

singleagain

Sun, Jul 16 2017, 6:17 pm

I'm having a hard time picturing this set up all along one wall, mostly bc I'm visual, but what about using different colors to differentiate different areas? and making sure all utensils and accessories like sponges/soap dispensers, and towels match whatever colors you choose

amother

Papaya

Sun, Jul 16 2017, 8:51 pm

singleagain wrote:

I still want to keep it Elegent.
It's an all white kitchen with carera marble countertops.

The setup is as follows
Counter-- dairy cooktop--counter--dairy sink--counter --meat cooktop--counter-- meat sink counter. All in a straight line.

Originally I wanted meat on one side and dairy on the other, but the building won't allow since to pass plumbing to the other side you have to dig into the floor, or ris the entire kitchen up a step, very complicated and very expensive.

My question was is a sink enough to clearly delineate the boundaries

In otherwards from one sink to the next a good 22-24 ft is the meat section
And from the second sink to the end, another 12-15 ft is the airy.
Is the sink enough for people not to accidentally put meat dishes on the other side, or is a mini Mechitza needed.

The ppl that will come over are not clueless to the laws of kashrut, just it's possible they are not as strict in their homes.
And of corse I will let them know this side is meat, that side is dairy.

amother

Orange

Sun, Jul 16 2017, 8:58 pm

I dont't think a sink is significant to signify the end if one section. Even for people who know kashrus. You cant expect people to be mind readers about how you decide to layout your kitchen, and how much more so for people who do not know kashrus. I have a stove dividing my milchig and fleishig counters, and labels on cabinets, but guests still put things on the wrong sides when they bring in dishes.

Sun, Jul 16 2017, 9:18 pm

Guests will not know where to put things unless you tell them. What seems like an intuitive setup to one person will not necessarily be obvious to someone else.

Position the plumbing, counters and appliances so they make sense to you (both for kashrut and ergonomics) and to maximize use of available space.

amother

Maroon

Mon, Jul 17 2017, 12:26 am

amother wrote:

Yup. Same set-up, same experience.

amother

Cerise

Mon, Jul 17 2017, 12:54 am

My double wall oven is the demarcation btwn meat and dairy on the same wall. Top oven and to the left is milk, bottom oven and to the right is meat. I can't quite picture the setup at your place but I find the ovens to ve a fabatasic and clear divider.

amother

Papaya

Mon, Jul 17 2017, 11:17 pm

amother wrote:

Ooh I like this idea.

I was thinking perhaps a hutch, or appliance garage on top of the counter.

Something similar to this
http://www.kraftmaid.com/wall-.....0000/

BTW, I need Seperate ranges because everything is electric, no gas.

amother

Babyblue

Tue, Jul 18 2017, 12:28 am

amother wrote:

I've never seen anyone have seperate ranges for meat and dairy.

Interesting. In my crowds, no one would ever think to use the same range for meat and milk!
We usually have a small two burner for dairy, though some people have room for a full range.

amother

Violet

Tue, Jul 18 2017, 12:35 am

amother wrote:

I've never seen anyone have seperate ranges for meat and dairy.

I have separate. If I had gas I wouldn't have done it but with these glass top ranges it seemed the prudent thing to do.

I was going to suggest as someone already did to do double oven in the center but if you prefer 2 slide in units and want to keep the counter more of a clean uninterrupted line, you can simply place a few small potted plants (herbs are nice in a kitchen) right in the center between meat and dairy.

Anyhow, in our kitchen the meat and dairy are on opposite walls, it couldn't be more separate and people (frum people) still make mistakes. It's not really a big deal so long as nothing is yad soledes. If they help clear a table and stack dirty dishes on the wrong side, no hard done - you move them and give the counter a little wipe. If someone is going to be in your house helping with actual cooking, you should be there anyway explaining things.

33055

Tue, Jul 18 2017, 6:30 am

amother wrote:

Interesting. In my crowds, no one would ever think to use the same range for meat and milk!
We usually have a small two burner for dairy, though some people have room for a full range.

I'm with you. Separate ranges are the norm. And if you count the Pesach kitchens, which are also normal in my crowd, that makes 3 ranges per family.

I have an additional oven and burners for Pareve.

My Rabbi said the divider is halacha. I hated it at first, but I see it is really functional. It is made of the same material as my counter and blends in.

amother

Gold

Tue, Jul 18 2017, 6:59 am

amother wrote:

yup, a divider of the same color and material as the counter is what's done here in Israel. e.g. marble counters, marble divider. I like it when divider is reasonably high b/c the taps over the sinks are usually quite high, and e.g. while washing dishes or rinsing meat it can splash over into the milchig side.

for utensils, drawers, cabinets, appliances e.t.c you can label each item - fleishig or milchig or pareve, or how you say it. or some people place a dab of non-removable paint e.g. blob of red paint on all fleishig items, utensils, pot handles, cutlery e.t.c and so on blue for milchig and another color for pareve.

good luck! and hatzlacha in your great mitzvah of kiruv.

Iymnok

Tue, Jul 18 2017, 7:16 am

You can put a design in the backsplash to separate.
A contrast counter to cabinet door, like a glass door on one cabinet.
In Israel it is common to have a piece of the counter material put up as a wall between the two sinks, I've seen it 6"-12" high.

Get blue and red electric tape and nail polish to label everything.
A separate counter with a two burner for pareve is nice. I use my pareve area predominantly for baking, so I need counter space, but not range space. A nearby pareve oven is very helpful for me.