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Dating etiquette question.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 28 2017, 3:48 pm
smileforamile wrote:
Many people, myself included, did not say that there is nothing wrong with this boy's behavior. I agree with you that it was wrong. I'm just saying that it doesn't automatically make him a nasty human being who is lacking empathy. It could be coming from that, but it could also be coming from other things.


I actually never said anything about the boys status as a human being. I said he BEHAVED despicably. Is it possible it was a one time error? It's possible. But I doubt it.
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amother
Brown


 

Post Sun, Jul 30 2017, 7:25 pm
I noticed many people quoted the apparently common-knowledge "minimum 2 hour" rule.

If this poor deluded kid missed that memo, and he thinks the girl is also only there to find out if he is right to marry, he may have thought his actions were correct.

Obviously they were not, but to call him socially inept is kinda rude. Socially clueless is also overkill here, unless he displays similar behavior in common social settings. DATING clueless he is obviously.

I do find it ironic that those who are so upset at him for judging her based on one item in her repertoire of behaviors is writing him off as a jerk from one (possibly honest) mistake.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 30 2017, 7:48 pm
amother wrote:
I noticed many people quoted the apparently common-knowledge "minimum 2 hour" rule.

If this poor deluded kid missed that memo, and he thinks the girl is also only there to find out if he is right to marry, he may have thought his actions were correct.

Obviously they were not, but to call him socially inept is kinda rude. Socially clueless is also overkill here, unless he displays similar behavior in common social settings. DATING clueless he is obviously.

I do find it ironic that those who are so upset at him for judging her based on one item in her repertoire of behaviors is writing him off as a jerk from one (possibly honest) mistake.


Lol. The exact definition of socially inept is to be socially clueless in a typical situation. For a kid in the shiddich system to think his action was.normal...
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amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Sun, Jul 30 2017, 8:02 pm
I disagree with your definition, m3b2c. To be socially inept a person must repeatedly, in a variety of settings, make social mistakes and not realise that they are mistakes.

I don't think making one mistake, and learning from it (or TBH even not learning from it) qualifies.

I have been very very misunderstood (misleading?) on the DLKZ point on this thread. My objection was really about people making nasty {before you jump on this word please see below } comments about other Jewish people, particularly in matters that are NOT automatically objectively awful (ya know -,rape/abuse etc etc).

So I'm saddened by

-a person's actions being called despicable
-a person being told that they did not raise a mentch
-a person being called socially dysfunctional because she had a different opinion to somebody else in a question that is clearly not black and white
-a person being cast off as socially clueless based on one anecdote

that sort of thing.

I found all of this very hurtful to the op and her nephew, and possibly highly damaging to their relationship if taken too seriously.

I think it is possible to say that you think the boy did the wrong thing without being so strong about it. (see originally I wrote "nasty", but then I realised that itself was nasty, so I changed it to strong. That's what I mean).
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Simple1




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 30 2017, 8:50 pm
You have a point. I tried to cover all bases when I posted. It's not proper etiquette, but we can DLKZ that maybe the boy can benefit from some coaching or just needs to develop in maturity over the next year or so.
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amother
Brown


 

Post Sun, Jul 30 2017, 8:52 pm
mommy3b2c wrote:
Lol. The exact definition of socially inept is to be socially clueless in a typical situation. For a kid in the shiddich system to think his action was.normal...

For a first-timer in the shidduch scene, I wouldn't call anything a "typical situation." Societal expectations are something you learn, not something you are born with.

Had he yelled at her for being a non-religious specimen and dropped her off at the side of the road, I agree he has serious issues. For politely ending a date in (what he probably assumed was) a considerate fashion, he simply needs some more coaching before anyone lets him loose on another girl.
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cbsp




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 30 2017, 9:27 pm
Are any of the replies here from people who believe going to movies is a deal breaker?

My thoughts are that dating in that type of a community looks very different than what some posters are speculating, especially those who say they didn't go through the shidduch system.

So, a first date might be that the boy and girl have not yet spoken to each other, not even once on the phone. They're most likely heading to a lounge or similar venue where the young lady will be lucky if she can get a drink of water or soda. Maybe a walk somewhere scenic. Fun fun fun. Or not, especially if it was mutually realized that there's a deal breaker.

Further, just talking with a person of the opposite gender for no purpose is frowned upon and actively discouraged - so why on earth would it occur to him that he did something un-mentchlichtig?

For all you know, she also doesn't want someone of his type (first clue: she goes to the movies and said so within a few minutes of the first date, so it's no biggie for her) and didn't realize what she got herself into until she met him.

Why speculate that she was humiliated without knowing the full social norms in that community?

I'm not saying that would have been my recommendation to him had he called and asked my opinion, but I also don't think it shows that much of a lack of middos given his background.

(full disclosure: I'm neither yeshivish nor Chassidish but did go through the shidduch system, going to movies could have been a deal breaker for me but not enough to cut a date short. And I would have totally appreciated a guy putting me out of the misery of a first date by ending it after only 20 minutes if there was something that "off" about the match.)
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amother
Linen


 

Post Sun, Jul 30 2017, 10:05 pm
Deleted post
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Kiwi13




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 30 2017, 10:18 pm
I admit I didn't read all the pages of posts but one idea that struck me when I read the OP is that maybe your nephew lacks certain social skills or has trouble with black and white thinking. Is this possible? It seems his actions were intended in a positive way, however they are not likely to be received that way. Regardless of how well-meaning he was, he still likely hurt this girl's feelings. If he has trouble with similar things in other areas (being too literal or not reading social cues correctly, etc.) then maybe that's the bigger issue to address. He for sure needs to know that this isn't okay dating behavior.
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Seas




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 30 2017, 10:59 pm
I'm going to be a minority opinion, but I don't actually think the boy did anything wrong (going on the premise that he went about ending the date in a polite way).

Without going into the various dating/beshow cultural differences, the one thing all frum communities agree on is that boys and girls should not mingle and chat. The sole exception is dating with a view to marry, and only then is it muttar.

In this case, as soon as it was clear there are irreconcilable differences, the date was effectively over, and there was no hetter for a bocher to spend a few hours on leisure activities with a girl.

I would hope he was polite and apologetic, but his actions were halachically proper.
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amother
Bisque


 

Post Sun, Jul 30 2017, 11:04 pm
Seas wrote:
I'm going to be a minority opinion, but I don't actually think the boy did anything wrong (going on the premise that he went about ending the date in a polite way).

Without going into the various dating/beshow cultural differences, the one thing all frum communities agree on is that boys and girls should not mingle and chat. The sole exception is dating with a view to marry, and only then is it muttar.

In this case, as soon as it was clear there are irreconcilable differences, the date was effectively over, and there was no hetter for a bocher to spend a few hours on leisure activities with a girl.

I would hope he was polite and apologetic, but his actions were halachically proper.


Hmm what about the halacha not to embarrass someone? This had to be shameful for the girl no matter how polite and apologetic he was (?) about dropping her like a hot potato in the middle of a date.
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amother
Periwinkle


 

Post Sun, Jul 30 2017, 11:57 pm
Wondering if a girl had rejected a guy in the first 10 minutes for being in pre-med rather than Yeshiva, and demanded to be taken home because she doesn't hang out with guys she wouldn't marry... if this would be considered her humiliating, embarrassing and shaming him.

I guess so.
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 31 2017, 12:15 am
amother wrote:
So exactly true Chayalle.

I'm surprised at the women sounding supportive or apologetic of this inconsiderate young man. I can't tell where that's coming from. I wonder if it's a backlash from boys' mothers who are sick and tired of being treated like the villains in all this.
My post obviously came from a mother of boys. It didn't excuse the horrible behavior the OP told us about, but asked if girls could also be asked to behave themselves. It's not very popular around here.

Like Chayalle said, we have to ask the young man to act like a mentch. There's nothing wrong with asking the young lady to act like a mentch too even though she's female.


I am pretty amazed how many women here don't even to expect a young man on a date to act like a mentch. It's pretty sad the bar is set so low.

There have been several guys that I knew I could never marry within minutes of meeting them. To ask them to take me home or to just leave if we meet would have been horribly rude in my world. Kavod habrios anyone?
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amother
Periwinkle


 

Post Mon, Jul 31 2017, 1:19 am
dancingqueen wrote:
I am pretty amazed how many women here don't even to expect a young man on a date to act like a mentch. It's pretty sad the bar is set so low.


100% should be a mentch... also 100% think that he didn't realize that what he did wasn't mentchlike. He thought he did the right thing.

I think there is some space between despicable behavior and mentchlike behavior... and that's where he landed... this time..
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amother
Periwinkle


 

Post Mon, Jul 31 2017, 1:43 am
Seas wrote:
I'm going to be a minority opinion, but I don't actually think the boy did anything wrong (going on the premise that he went about ending the date in a polite way).

Without going into the various dating/beshow cultural differences, the one thing all frum communities agree on is that boys and girls should not mingle and chat. The sole exception is dating with a view to marry, and only then is it muttar.

In this case, as soon as it was clear there are irreconcilable differences, the date was effectively over, and there was no hetter for a bocher to spend a few hours on leisure activities with a girl.

I would hope he was polite and apologetic, but his actions were halachically proper.


Out of respect to all the people involved in setting up these two - the guy should have allowed for the possibility that this young lady could be flexible in the future about going to movies (ie would drop it) if that was important to her husband... with that allowance the date could continue without it being a 'leisure activity'.

He could have given her an hour to get to know what a great guy he was - and then talked a bit more about if watching movies, as a married women is really important to her. (and if he thinks that anyone who ever watched a movie is unsuitable as a life partner...he's got bigger issues).

I don't think he insulted her, as much as he did the shadchan(s), his parents and her parents who put this together.
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amother
Turquoise


 

Post Mon, Jul 31 2017, 2:21 am
I think this boils down to the question of whether a date is a way to find a soulmate or a prelude to a business deal. Someone who's been totally desensitized (by personality or the shidduch system) sees a girl as a commodity. Either she's worth pursuing or not. Someone who's looking for profound human connection will treat a date as a person to be valued and respected.
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amother
Lemon


 

Post Mon, Jul 31 2017, 6:27 am
amother wrote:
Wondering if a girl had rejected a guy in the first 10 minutes for being in pre-med rather than Yeshiva, and demanded to be taken home because she doesn't hang out with guys she wouldn't marry... if this would be considered her humiliating, embarrassing and shaming him.

I guess so.


Yes. Why would anyone think otherwise? My ds is in the parsha. Sometimes it's clear within minutes that he and his date don't suit and would never suit, not because she's not a good person but because of something that didn't come up in the research stage. Ds wouldn't dream of dropping the girl just like that. He doesn't stay out for five hours but he gives it a respectable period of time. And then he says no to the shadchan. I thought half the purpose of the whole back door espionage conspiracy that is the shidduch system is so that no one ever has to reject or be rejected face to face for any reason, whether it's because of something about the person themselves or something in their background that's not compatible.
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amother
Jetblack


 

Post Mon, Jul 31 2017, 8:23 am
amother wrote:
Yes. Why would anyone think otherwise? My ds is in the parsha. Sometimes it's clear within minutes that he and his date don't suit and would never suit, not because she's not a good person but because of something that didn't come up in the research stage. Ds wouldn't dream of dropping the girl just like that. He doesn't stay out for five hours but he gives it a respectable period of time. And then he says no to the shadchan. I thought half the purpose of the whole back door espionage conspiracy that is the shidduch system is so that no one ever has to reject or be rejected face to face for any reason, whether it's because of something about the person themselves or something in their background that's not compatible.


I've had kids BH get married via the shidduch system and kids now in the system. Of both genders. There were times when we opened the door and spoke to the boy - even before he met our daughter- that we knew it was a no go. But we knew our daughter would go out and spend two and a half to three hours being a mensch and then say no to the shadhcan while also telling his virtues to her. There was even one time when we found something out after agreeing to the date that we knew would make the two incompatible. We didn't tell our daughter. She went on the date, saw it in the date, and politely declined a second date the next day before the Shadchan told her if the boy wanted a second date. And she sang his praises so that his mother would hear that from the Shadchan as well.

My son would NEVER bring a girl home 20 minutes after picking her up. Unless there was a crazy emergency. He might know in one minute it's not for him but he would still spend the two and a half to three hours with her making polite conversation. Why? Because it's hurtful to not have that done.

My kids have friends who have been out with someone that they knew immediately wasn't for them. They knew they wouldn't go out again a second time. But they spent the two and a half to three hours talking to the person. And when they spoke to the Shadchan in the am they also had the name of a friend to suggest. One or two of these such stories actually led to a marriage between a friend and a date that wasn't right for someone else.

That's why my kids never really know if the other side will say yes to another date. Because nobody tells you upfront this will never work. People are polite and have the date and in the am tell the Shadchan if they will go out again. But they don't end a date without having one.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 31 2017, 8:51 am
I've never heard of 2 hours and I'm a shadchanit. Hate me all you like.
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amother
Jetblack


 

Post Mon, Jul 31 2017, 9:33 am
Ruchel wrote:
I've never heard of 2 hours and I'm a shadchanit. Hate me all you like.


In NY a first date in the shidduch world is always between 2.5 and 3 hours. No longer. No shorter.
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