Am I the only one | Imamother

marina

Mon, Jul 31 2017, 8:56 pm

Fox wrote:

How about where you compared Breitbart content to depicting Jews as vermin? Would that qualify?

Is Steve Bannon Anti-Semitic?

After all, you were offended by Breitbart content, and depicting Jews as vermin is offensive -- same thing, right?

Or when anti-Semitism on the left was brought up, you had a handy picture of a few dozen neo-Nazis protesting the removal of Confederate statues, apparently demonstrating that the right is far more concerning compared to "a few left-leaning politicians with anti-Israel views":

Safe Haven for Trump Supporters

Now you may offer up a Clintonian argument where you debate the definition of "is" or something equivalent. After all, you didn't actually say that all conservatives are neo-Nazis. You didn't say that Breitbart is the equivalent of Stormfront. Putting up pictures of anti-Semitic cartoons and photos of neo-Nazis and comparing them to conservative ideology isn't the same as calling them identical . . . You were just innocently showing Americans engaging in protest and displaying artwork . . .

Sorry, uh what? I am not asking you to bring me examples of where I point out extremists in the right wing party and compare them to fascists. Or where we argue about whose extremists are more dangerous.

I am asking you for an occasion where I said anything suggesting that all conservatives are fascists or that a particular fascist represents all or most conservatives or that any fascist ideology is "the logical result of conservative ideology" as you put it here

Quote:

You can't argue that The Daily Stormer is the logical result of conservative ideology

It's not semantics. Comparing extremists in the right wing to those in other places and eras is not even a little bit similar to claiming that any extremist of any group represents the whole.

Sometimes people reading these exchanges get lost, so let me be very clear:

I have never said that the logical outgrowth of conservatism is fascism. I have never said that any one right-wing crazy somehow represents all republicans or all conservatives.

The reason I have never said this is because it has never been true.

I have many conservative /right wing /republican friends, relatives, and colleagues who are kind and good people, who are intelligent and funny and thoughtful. They consider information, and research data, and sometimes come to different conclusions than I do. Some of them voted for Trump, others did not. In either case, they are not represented by right wing extremists or fascists of any kind. And it is fundamentally despicable to lump everyone together and claim that some nut job represents hundreds of millions of people.

I'll thank you not to make this mistake again. Thanks.

marina

Mon, Jul 31 2017, 9:05 pm

Also enjoy the article below, which starts like this:

Quote:

Hi Andrew,

I’m writing because I just can’t deal with my father anymore. He’s a 65-year-old super right-wing conservative who has basically turned into a total ******* intent on ruining our relationship and our planet with his politics. I’m more or less a liberal democrat with very progressive values and I know that people like my dad are going to destroy us all. I don’t have any good times with him anymore. All we do is argue. When I try to spend time with him without talking politics or discussing any current events, there’s still an underlying tension that makes it really uncomfortable. Don’t get me wrong, I love him no matter what, but how do I explain to him that his politics are turning him into a monster, destroying the environment, and pushing away the people who care about him?

Thanks for your help,
Son of A Right-Winger

https://www.villagevoice.com/2.....hole/

WhatFor

Mon, Jul 31 2017, 10:09 pm

marina wrote:

Also enjoy the article below, which starts like this:

Quote:

Hi Andrew,

I’m writing because I just can’t deal with my father anymore. He’s a 65-year-old super right-wing conservative who has basically turned into a total a****** intent on ruining our relationship and our planet with his politics. I’m more or less a liberal democrat with very progressive values and I know that people like my dad are going to destroy us all. I don’t have any good times with him anymore. All we do is argue. When I try to spend time with him without talking politics or discussing any current events, there’s still an underlying tension that makes it really uncomfortable. Don’t get me wrong, I love him no matter what, but how do I explain to him that his politics are turning him into a monster, destroying the environment, and pushing away the people who care about him?

Thanks for your help,
Son of A Right-Winger

https://www.villagevoice.com/2.....ing-a******/

Wow, Marina. Thank you for sharing.

chaiz

Mon, Jul 31 2017, 11:27 pm

Fox wrote:

Really, I can sum up Trump's victory and his voters' general satisfaction with their choice by referencing Andrew Breitbart's observation that politics is downstream from culture. Trump tapped in on the profound disrespect felt by people at the hands of coastal media, the academic world, and leftists/progressives of all sorts. In other words, bullying people for decades on end hasn't worked well for the left. Given that, I think we got off easy with Trump.

Right. I mean the only choice for the Republican nomination was Trump. Because there were no other decent options to be had. Oh and in 2012 life must have been really good to just reelect Obama, there was no question about it. And Obama's opponent was the most down to earth non condescending man around. (By the way, I voted Romney in 2012 without holding my nose and was not happy Obama won.) I think the so called higher ground that too many conservatives/republicans think they have is just arrogance.

SixOfWands

Tue, Aug 01 2017, 6:31 am

Fox wrote:

I don't recall anyone promising anything fabulous, and if they did, I don't recall anyone with even a modicum of economic education believing him/her. They promised to repeal the ACA, which is turning out to be unnecessary as insurers withdraw from the market and those who are left raise rates.

But the reason the election is still being rehashed is because people are still enraged over Trump's being President.

So make it easy on everyone: don't get so worked up over Trump himself, and no one will be forced to say, "Yes, but remember who he was running against?"

I can despise Trump without reliving the election. You voted for the guy. You won. But every time there's criticism of Trump, you, and other Trump supporters, pull out "well Hilary ..." You started talking about Debbie Wasserman Schultz. Trump brings up his victory incessantly, and remains obsessed with the fact that he lost the popular vote. While, at the same time, demanding that we abandon investigations into wrongdoings by the man who was elected, in order to reopen investigations that were closed without any finding or wrongdoing by the person who lost, and who is now

As to anyone promising amazing healthcare, let's see what the man you voted for, and who is our president, said.

Trump repeatedly promised that he would cover all Americans when given the chance to repeal and replace Obamacare. He stated that coverage for everyone was "just human decency" back in February of 2016.

"We're going to have insurance for everybody," he said in an interview with The Washington Post. "There was a philosophy in some circles that if you can't pay for it, you don't get it. That's not going to happen with us."

"Everybody's got to be covered. This is an un-Republican thing for me to say,” Trump told CBS News in 2015 during the presidential primary. “I am going to take care of everybody. I don't care if it costs me votes or not. Everybody's going to be taken care of much better than they're taken care of now."

I was the first & only potential GOP candidate to state there will be no cuts to Social Security, Medicare & Medicaid. Huckabee copied me.

Trump said the legislation would be "every bit as good on pre-existing conditions as Obamacare."

“Will have much lower premiums & deductibles while at the same time taking care of pre-existing conditions!”

“Our healthcare plan will lower premiums & deductibles — and be great healthcare!”

Did you forget all of that? Or think that anyone with any sense wouldn't believe it, even though promised by Trump?

marina

Tue, Aug 01 2017, 6:32 am

Also, Fox, here's a link you will appreciate.
http://truthuncensored.net/wom.....iral/

It's all about a woman's experiences causing her to abandon the left and vote for Trump. It's a series of vignettes that describe her personal experiences. Some of them are more worrisome and some she just shows her ignorance (e.g. Hillary Clinton criminal defense example). But all of them are anecdotes about individuals that she uses to dismiss the entire left, a non homogeneous group,. many of whom disagree with the incidents she portrays.

In other news, I will be writing a detailed article about why everyone should abandon Orthodox Judaism. I will list all my experiences with crazy rabbis, demented orthodox people, and harmful community outlooks. Specifically, my article will focus on:

1. My experiences with rabbis who refused to give a birth control heter.

2. My experiences with the abusive man my friend married through the ridiculous shidduch system.

3. My experience with the community that supported my friend's ex because he was more orthodox than she was.

4. My experiences in orthodox communities in NYC and how my friends married guys who can't read.

5. My experiences with Orthodox yeshivish-type people who refused jobs I offered because they'd rather work under the table.

6. My experiences with Orthodox people that I know who refuse to get a civil marriage so they can claim benefits for their 8 kids.

7. Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi and his appalling comments.

8. The disgusting attitude that some communities adopt towards women's bodies and tznius, that normalize pedophelia and blame victims.

9. The outrageous ongoing refusal to report molesters to authorities because of the issur of mesira.

10. The ongoing disregard for secular laws which results in welfare fraud, illiteracy, and danger to infants from metzitza b'peh.

11. My seminary teacher who said that asking questions was apikorsus.

12. All the women here who were taught to have 5ex with their husbands even when they don't want to because the man's lack of ability to control himself is their wives' problem.

13. The kollel men who are a burden on society.

14. Homophobia

15. racism towards blacks and the derogatory appalling comments I heard from children and adults.

16. The tendency against women's pictures in orthodox publications.

That's what I thought of in 5 minutes. I'm sure I can think of some more vignettes and experiences that will surely convince everyone that Orthodox Judaism has lost its way and we should all abandon it. Because my personal experiences, of course, reflect all the evils of Orthodox Jewry.

SixOfWands

Tue, Aug 01 2017, 6:41 am

MagentaYenta wrote:

So now it's DWS's fault that Awan committed bank fraud with his Mrs? (Memories like the corners of my mind, no one ever mentions old Charlie K, oh except for moi. But hey, as long as the strawmen are coming out I thought I'd contribute.)

Of course it was! And Clinton had Seth Rich killed. And she's really gay. And why are we investigating Trump's Russian connections, including today's revelation that he personally dictated a misleading press release, when we could be looking into really important stuff (or, as Fox said, "But Russian!")

PinkFridge

Wed, Aug 02 2017, 4:59 am

SixOfWands wrote:

For telling police officers not to protect the heads of people whom they're placing in the back of police cars. Police brutality? That's the American way!

[He was just joking. Or so he claims now that he's been vilified.]

Oh, I think he was. Maybe part of it was wishful thinking, in a more perfect [sic] world, but sure, he was joking.
Really, really stupid joke. I heard an interview on local radio with a local police official bemoaning the stupidity, that cops truly go by innocent until proven guilty, that police have to have a good rapport with all sorts of people, I guess like contacts, etc. and that this kind of talk really undermines it.
The problem, of course, is all the people who will remember this. And even if these good police officials are righteously moved to act on it - say, catch someone in the act? - they shouldn't and can't.

Fox

Mon, Aug 07 2017, 10:15 am

I had to take a little break from political bickering for a thyroidectomy last week. Boruch Hashem, I'm recovering and have had plenty of time to read and reflect.

marina wrote:

It's not semantics. Comparing extremists in the right wing to those in other places and eras is not even a little bit similar to claiming that any extremist of any group represents the whole.

So precisely what was the comparison you were attempting to make? That only Breitbart readers are equivalent to Nazi cartoonists? With 78 million unique views since February, that's a whole lot of "extremists." That only Breitbart editors are equivalent . . . ? That only certain Breitbart contributors are equivalent . . . ? That only Andrew Breitbart, a"h, was equivalent to Nazi cartoonists?

Comparisons convey meaning. One of the deranged yahoos who created graphics comparing former President Obama to a monkey cannot turn around and say, "Hey, I never actually said I don't like him because he's black! In fact, some of my best friends are black!"

Now, the "Son of a Right Winger" has a very legitimate problem that was recently confirmed by the Pew Organization: liberals are significantly more intolerant of others who hold different political opinions than are conservatives (Pew Organization).

I suggest that perhaps "Son" consult with a diversity trainer who can explain to him the value of divergent experiences and perspectives and how he might better get along with those of different backgrounds and worldviews. Hopefully Google's Danielle Brown will soon be available.

All that said, I made a critical mistake in trying to explain why most Trump voters are relatively satisfied. The reason is not related to policy or even policy outcomes. It all goes back to culture. Almost no one voted for Trump because they'd done a full review of his proposed foreign policy initiatives and done a pivot table comparison with Nixon's and Reagan's similar actions. They voted for him, as Andrew Breitbart presciently predicted, because "politics is downstream from culture."

Trump voters are not necessarily establishment conservatives, nor are they so-called "debate club conservatives." A significant percentage voted for Obama. Rather, they are motivated by a deep concern over the left's domination of culture, entertainment, academic life, and of everyday language. They want the country to stop following agendas set by the NYT and The Daily Beast. They believe that Trump offers the best chance at winning the culture war.

marina

Mon, Aug 07 2017, 11:10 am

Quote:

I don't blame you for forgetting what this discussion was about, because it was 9 months ago. But I'm sure you reviewed that link before posting.

The Anti-Semitic Cartoon is here: http://www.imamother.com/forum.....t=140

This was a discussion you and I were having about Milo's offensive article calling women on birth control sluts and other vile names.

Your position was that I shouldn't be offended and should still respect people with whose opinions I disagree. I offered you the anti semitic cartoon as an example of something YOU surely would be offended at and would lose respect for whomever published it.

That's when you told me you don't care about the antisemitic cartoon and are not offended by it.

There was no comparison that I was trying to make- I just tried to show how people lose respect for those who are extraordinarily offensive. But you yourself were not offended by the cartoon, so my point was lost on you.

I have no idea if you are genuinely confused about that exchange or are really trying to misrepresent it, but I'll go with the former.

Last edited by marina on Mon, Aug 07 2017, 11:22 am; edited 1 time in total

marina

Mon, Aug 07 2017, 11:15 am

http://www.imamother.com/forum.....rt=60

As for this debate, you were explaining to me how we should all be concerned about left wing extremists and I was explaining that we should all be concerned about right wing extremists. Your position was that right wing extremists were not dangerous because they were a small fringe element, and I disagreed.

Literally nothing relevant to your point here. I have never ever said that conservative or republican ideology is fascist or that they're nazis or whatever.

Keep looking though. There's nothing there.

In fact, I find the never-ending comparisons of Trump to Hitler to be offensive to Holocaust victims and not worth my time to respond to. So I've definitely never made a similar comparison. But yeah, keep looking.

marina

Mon, Aug 07 2017, 11:21 am

Quote:

All that said, I made a critical mistake in trying to explain why most Trump voters are relatively satisfied. The reason is not related to policy or even policy outcomes. It all goes back to culture. Almost no one voted for Trump because they'd done a full review of his proposed foreign policy initiatives and done a pivot table comparison with Nixon's and Reagan's similar actions. They voted for him, as Andrew Breitbart presciently predicted, because "politics is downstream from culture."

Trump voters are not necessarily establishment conservatives, nor are they so-called "debate club conservatives." A significant percentage voted for Obama. Rather, they are motivated by a deep concern over the left's domination of culture, entertainment, academic life, and of everyday language. They want the country to stop following agendas set by the NYT and The Daily Beast. They believe that Trump offers the best chance at winning the culture war.

I would agree that many in Trump's base are concerned more about cultural issues which likely don't affect them on a daily basis- transgender, gay pple, immigration in many places, etc. They are not focusing on economic policy.

However, that does not make them look like wise voters and I'd hope that there's a sizeable minority that voted for him for some better reasons than "culture."

marina

Mon, Aug 07 2017, 11:30 am

Quote:

Now, the "Son of a Right Winger" has a very legitimate problem that was recently confirmed by the Pew Organization: liberals are significantly more intolerant of others who hold different political opinions than are conservatives (Pew Organization).

This is not the best way to sum up this very detailed article that goes into a lot more than what you just wrote.

But yes, a larger percent of democrats say that their friendship would be strained if they discovered their friend voted for Trump than percent of republicans say that their friendship would be strained if they discovered their friend voted for Hillary.

But.. isn't that sort of duh?

Trump is the president. He is wrecking up a lot. So isn't it understandable that people are unhappier with their Trump-voting friends because Trump is actually the guy in power? Don't you think that if Hillary was in charge and she'd be mucking everything up - as seen by many republicans - they'd also be unhappier with their Hillary-voting friends?

Because that vote put that person in power? Not because democrats are just more intolerant?

You took these polls and drew unwarranted conclusions without considering alternative explanations. Assuming we've both taken basic statistics courses, we cannot make assumptions like that.

Fox

Mon, Aug 07 2017, 12:56 pm

marina wrote:

Don't you think that if Hillary was in charge and she'd be mucking everything up - as seen by many republicans - they'd also be unhappier with their Hillary-voting friends?

Because that vote put that person in power? Not because democrats are just more intolerant?

You took these polls and drew unwarranted conclusions without considering alternative explanations. Assuming we've both taken basic statistics courses, we cannot make assumptions like that.

But if your thesis were correct, "Son of a Right-Winger" would be largely a post-election phenomenon.

But a Pew study in August 2016 was pretty predictive of the pattern. Forty-seven percent of Clinton supporters (versus 31 percent of Trump supporters) said they had no close friends who supported the opposing candidate. Only 18 percent of Clinton supporters claimed to have "some" close friends who supported Trump (compared to 38 percent of Trump supporters who they had some close friends who supported Clinton). Pew Organization -- August 2016

In other words, even when Clinton was expected to win in a Nixon/McGovern-style rout, her supporters self-reported an astonishing degree of isolation.

But here was what I found in both the "Son of a Right-Winger" question and answer that confirms my worldview:

Son of a Right-Winger didn't ask for advice on how to argue convincingly with his father. And the columnist, Andrew W. K., didn't give any. His advice boiled down to, "Be nice. It's not worth losing your relationship with your father over."

Similar queries in right-wing media are usually focused on how the questioner might better argue his/her position on a topic without hopelessly alienating the hide-bound relative and/or being seen as disrespectful.

In other words, the conservative mindset is that there are evidence-based facts that can be marshalled for the purpose of persuading others -- even if it's an uphill battle -- and that it is incumbent upon those who engage in such discussions to locate those facts, organize them, and present them in a way that is likely to influence or at least provide explanation.

Neither "Son" nor Andrew seem to live in a world in which people are expected to examine evidence, present cogent arguments, defend their conclusions, or rebut opponents -- not on the large political stage nor even among friends and family. It's absolutely terrifying to me to see otherwise literate people jump gladly into the notion that having debatable opinions -- even wrong opinions -- turns people into "monsters."

Of course, I do need to be more sympathetic to Andrew W. K. He's downright Zen about political differences compared to long-time VV columnist Michael Musto, who recently urged in "What To Do When Your Friend's A Gay Republican" that dropping the friendship is the best suggestion. The rest of that particular column was about a performer called "Penny Arcade" who has been "diminished" by oppression of her various identities. Just a guess here, but I'm thinking the gay Republicans may be better off making new friends anyway.