Accepted payroll | Imamother

watergirl

Thu, Aug 03 2017, 3:51 pm

Iymnok wrote:

Whereas the 21yo single employee loses out trying to save for a financially stable home and possibly afford to further her education and career.
Work is not a chessed organization.

And the divorced single mother who looses out in her timely paycheck because the married kollel wife gets paid priority. Sick.

amother

Lavender

Thu, Aug 03 2017, 4:18 pm

mha3484 wrote:

I want a raise because I did a good job. I would feel like such a charity case if I got a raise because of my marital status or family size. It happens to be that I got a significant raise before my third child was born because I proved my value to my employer. He was very nervous that someone with small kids would not be a stable employee but I proved him wrong over and over again.

This is disingenuous. B'h it sounds like you've never truly been desperate for money. If you were and your boss gave you a seemingly undeserved raise, your first thought would not be about what a pity case you are accepting charity. Not even close. Your first thought would be b'h now I can pay some bills.

Iymnok

Thu, Aug 03 2017, 4:19 pm

I'd like to add that right now I'm a sahm doing light work. When I think about getting a "real" job, I facto in child care, babysitting and after school care as well as transportation. Also cleaning help and convenience foods.
Those are all MY responsibilities. Not my employer or anyone else's.
They are a factor I must address before even searching.
I declined an interview since I couldn't find care for my kids.
That's life.
That's me on a tight budget!

mha3484

Thu, Aug 03 2017, 4:21 pm

I have been desperate for money. I have worked some lousy jobs because we needed the income. I put up with a horrific coworker for a year because my family needed the money. I wanted to cry every day and the going back to work on Mondays was torture. I have also taken other community resources when I needed them. I am still a person with self esteem. If I got a raise and did not earn it I would feel bad about myself. No one likes taking tzedakah. You do it because you need to but it doesnt feel good.

MagentaYenta

Thu, Aug 03 2017, 4:41 pm

[quote="amother"][u]

So from the bolded, it seems that you are saying that as long as everyone in the same predicament receives the same benefits, then it's not discriminatory. With that in mind why would it be discriminatory for a boss to give a raise to any employee who gets married or has a large family? Everyone has access to the raise as long as the conditions are met. You seemed to indicate in your response to the op that for a boss to give extra to a married woman with a family is discriminatory.[/quote

Here's a good example. When I worked there was a policy of bereavement leave for employees. You got x number of paid days off if you lost an immediate family member. So anyone who suffered a loss was eligible for this benefit. If you needed more time than what the bereavement leave covered you used your available leave time or took LWOP.

As someone pointed out earlier, employment isn't chessed and shouldn't be confused with such.

Merit based salary increases aren't discriminatory, someone without children is likely to receive one as someone with children.

Companies who care about their legal liabilities will have all of these factors spelled out and in writing. That way there are clear cut explanations should their policies be questioned. Can an employer have a written policy that within the confines of their business they will be paying married men with children more than single adults? Yea they could have that policy but it is discriminatory under the law and they open themselves up to liability.

qwerty4

Thu, Aug 03 2017, 5:37 pm

Iymnok wrote:

So should an employer really be seeking out your experience or talent, he would presumably offer to pay for child care options. That's how paying for babysitting or raising the salary might come into play when circumstances change.

SixOfWands

Thu, Aug 03 2017, 6:41 pm

qwerty4 wrote:

No. If an employer wants to hire her, s/he would offer a salary commensurate with her experience and the current job market. The the poster would choose to accept or decline the position. If the poster needs childcare, that would factor into her decision.

People should not be paid based on their childcare needs. Because if that were an acceptable consideration, a self-interested employer would never hire a woman of child-bearing age, and certainly not a frum woman. Let's say I have 3 candidates for a position:

Mary Immaculata has 2 kids, both in high school. She's not Jewish, and therefore will be available for work on all those holidays, not to mention Friday afternoon.

Jessie Jewey is in her mid-40s, has 7 kids, including a pre-schooler, and is frum.

Myrtle Fertilestein is 24, has 2 toddlers, and looks like she may be pregnant with the next.

If I were allowed to discriminate, why would I hire the Myrtle, who is clearly going to be demanding maternity leave on a regular basis, and time off with sick kids, and (in your world) money for someone to watch the toddlers?

Even Jessie is a bad choice. She's probably not having any more kids, but I still have to pay for childcare, and she'll still be out with the kids and for holidays.

Mary, the job is yours!

BetsyTacy

Thu, Aug 03 2017, 7:32 pm

Yes, SixofWands, but by hiring Mary you might have problems that will make it less comfortable for you, the boss, to keep up the heimish environment you want for yourself at work. She might dress appropriately for an office, but not up to your standards. Her office conversation might include references to popular culture or personal choices that you the boss don't want to hear about in your office environment. Bosses do hire people who fit into the "corporate culture". Mary might not fit in a small office where Yiddish is sprinkled into the conversation.

Just some reasons why Mary might not get the job, even if on paper she seems the best choice.

SixOfWands

Thu, Aug 03 2017, 7:39 pm

BetsyTacy wrote:

Maybe. In a small, exclusively frum office.

But not everyone wants to work in a small, exclusively frum office. And the world that is being envisioned here would virtually ensure that no frum person -- male or female -- would ever be hired in any other environment.

33055

Thu, Aug 03 2017, 8:16 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Frum companies close on Jewish holidays. Mary will not be available on holidays that the business is open on. Frum bonuses businesses work on a different calender. Many are closed Fridays but open Sundays.

amother

cornflower

Fri, Aug 04 2017, 8:48 am

watergirl wrote:

Exactly. All you need to do to bait them is have a discrimination attorney give them a call. Its so wrong.

Hah!
I once put up a post about salaries and u educated me well.
Well, the time came for me to go job hunting, if I had an attorney in my pocket, let's just say I wouldn't need to work anymore lol.
Some examples:
I don't wanna hire married ladies, I want someone unattached Banging head

(this was on the phone)

I don't usually hire women, but I'm open to it. (Like he's doing me a favor). Banging head

he said more stuff and I was so surprised that this was a "big" company.

The list goes on and on.

amother

cornflower

Fri, Aug 04 2017, 8:58 am

amother wrote:

No way!
At my lowest,I was adamant that I wanted a raise because I deserved it and NOT because of my bills. As a matter of fact, I didnt want a raise based on the fact that I couldn't make it financially

I wanted more than JUST to pay bills. I wanted to get paid based on my work.

watergirl

Fri, Aug 04 2017, 9:31 am

amother wrote:

(this was on the phone)

I don't usually hire women, but I'm open to it. (Like he's doing me a favor). Banging head

he said more stuff and I was so surprised that this was a "big" company.

The list goes on and on.

I dont understand what point you're trying to make. I educated you? Can you explain a bit more? I cant tell if I should read aggression or sarcasm into your post.

ETA - in thinking about this some more -and if this doesnt apply to you, then take it for what its worth. If you were limiting yourself to only looking for work in your daled amos, in only a heimish environment, then that's what you will find. My whole working career, I worked in a frum environment and was treated like trash. Health insurance? HA! Break time? Paid sick leave? HA HA! Bosses discriminating like crazy. Finally I woke up. BH a million times over, my job in a non frum work place is the best job that I have ever had. Its a choice. People may not agree with me because where they live, this isn't whats "done". Well, going along with the crowd is also a choice.

I know that jobs are hard to come by. I know that its not easy to do something different. But look at the amazing frum women role models who we have now, who are working in the secular world and rocking at it! Breaking the barriers and leading the way for better jobs for all of us.

marina

Fri, Aug 04 2017, 10:55 am

Yes, it's discriminatory and illegal.

But if you don't care about that, please note that it also backfires.

Paying higher for married-with-children ultimately means that less married-with-children and/or frum pple will be hired. If I'm a small business with a limited budget and I think I should pay higher to frum people who have kids, why wouldn't I give preferential treatment to secular people or single people (being that I don't care about the law anyway)?

And when I'm choosing whom to lay off when my company is going through tough times, my choice will certainly depend on who is costing me more, right?

Maybe this is not obvious to people because I doubt many employers will come right out and say it- I didn't hire you because Baila is single so I will not feel bad about paying her minimum wage. But I'm sure it happens often. Some frum employers, as you all know, refuse ( illegally) to hire frum Jews at all.

MagentaYenta

Fri, Aug 04 2017, 10:59 am

Working in public service was refreshing after three years at a frum owned company. Policy and practices were in writing. Everyone had a level playing field when it came to hiring, advancement, career paths and merit increases. There was no infighting because someone was a favorite of the boss. There was no capricious disciplinary standards and the rules didn't change moment by moment depending on the owners whims. Standards of behavior and productivity were clearly defined. Performance reviews were participatory and occurred on a regular basis. And then there is the whole reasonable accommodation for religious beliefs. I never had to sit on my hands or bite my tongue while a colleague of another faith was mocked by the boss.

amother

Vermilion

Fri, Aug 04 2017, 11:00 am

marina wrote:

I'm married and have a child and am having a hell of a time finding a job because of the bolded. I HATE THE FRUM COMMUNITY Banging head