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I Am Very Disturbed by This Gemara
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 08 2017, 11:11 am
In researching another question, I came upon Yevamos 37b, which talks about the importance of knowing who the father is.

So they ask a question about the conduct of Rav and Rav Nachman, who apparently would show up in a city and ask " who wants to marry me for the day?" To protect them from sinning apparently. And the answer is that everyone would know who the father is because these people are famous.

So this really doesn't work for me and paints this whole gemara and 5ex thing in a very unpalatable light. Forget about that this is not accepted today and forget about the older single who was excoriated on another thread.

But hey, I thought 5ex was supposed to be something special, not just body parts and fluids and chemistry. And I thought men, especially leaders, are expected to have self control and not just have one night stands "so they won't sin." And these people aren't even embarrassed about it- it's like totally normal.

So what's the story? In the times of the gemara, one night stands were acceptable for great leaders? Meaningless 5ex was preferable to zera levatala? And these women would line up for the opportunity?

And yeah, what would we say if these people were alive today? And why? Why have norms changed so much?

Anyone have some insight?

here's a summary of this: http://dafnotes.blogspot.com/2......html


Last edited by marina on Tue, Aug 08 2017, 7:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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giselle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 08 2017, 11:24 am
Never heard this. Very intrigued. Following.
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energy booster




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 08 2017, 12:22 pm
Do you think you will get the answer here? You will only make many women question Hashem's Torah.

Many things are hidden and not for our minds to make sense of.

Go find someone who is totally immersed in the Torah. Someone who can answer all your questions.

I am just wondering what your goal is? Are you really looking for answers? Or just want to mock Judaism?
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giselle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 08 2017, 12:27 pm
energy booster wrote:


I am just wondering what your goal is? Are you really looking for answers? Or just want to mock Judaism?


Not sure how you got to this. Can't speak for the OP but I am genuinely insterested in gaining clarity on this.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 08 2017, 12:38 pm
energy booster wrote:
Do you think you will get the answer here? You will only make many women question Hashem's Torah.

Many things are hidden and not for our minds to make sense of.

Go find someone who is totally immersed in the Torah. Someone who can answer all your questions.

I am just wondering what your goal is? Are you really looking for answers? Or just want to mock Judaism?


Yeah, Marina. How dare you actually cite Gemorah and have questions about it. It makes Judaism look bad.
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Otrox




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 08 2017, 12:44 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Yeah, Marina. How dare you actually cite Gemorah and have questions about it. It makes Judaism look bad /sarcasm.


Last edited by Otrox on Tue, Aug 08 2017, 12:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 08 2017, 12:44 pm
energy booster wrote:
...
Go find someone who is totally immersed in the Torah. Someone who can answer all your questions. ...


Like a man?
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gp2.0




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 08 2017, 12:51 pm
The question you should be asking first would be, is this story meant to be literal or metaphorical?

Not everything in the Gemara is meant to be taken literally. Sometimes they would just provide an example that allowed for easy explanation, often with quite a bit of humor thrown in. (Do you know the Gemara about two people who were so fat that when they stood face to face a sheep could walk between them under their stomachs? lol something like that.)

If the answer is that the story is a metaphor, then the answer to your question is as follows:

Q: How can we know who the father is?
A: if someone is well known then we know who the father is.
Q: what would be an example of someone who is well known?
A: someone who could show up in a random town, declare something outlandish like "who wants to marry me for the day?" and instead of everyone freaking out, everyone would be like "hey we know those dudes! Wassup?" That would be an example of someone who is well known, and thus one way to know who the father is.
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gp2.0




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 08 2017, 1:08 pm
I also want to add that the Gemara is Torah sh'bal Peh, and once upon a time it was literally passed down from father to son through the spoken word. History has shown us that stories survive, and the best way to make a boring factoid survive is to turn it into a story - legend, folk tale, fairy tale. The scarier, the funnier, the weirder the better. Interesting stories are the ones that are remembered. It gets a little confusing when parts of religious texts become a story - because obviously we believe that a lot of it DID happen. The skill in learning Torah (which I don't pretend to have) is in knowing which parts are literal and which parts are metaphor. This is the Rambams opinion btw, not mine, and he also felt that the metaphors themselves had inherent value even if we never figured out the meaning behind them.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 08 2017, 1:09 pm
gp2.0 wrote:
The question you should be asking first would be, is this story meant to be literal or metaphorical?

Not everything in the Gemara is meant to be taken literally. Sometimes they would just provide an example that allowed for easy explanation, often with quite a bit of humor thrown in. (Do you know the Gemara about two people who were so fat that when they stood face to face a sheep could walk between them under their stomachs? lol something like that.)

If the answer is that the story is a metaphor, then the answer to your question is as follows:

Q: How can we know who the father is?
A: if someone is well known then we know who the father is.
Q: what would be an example of someone who is well known?
A: someone who could show up in a random town, declare something outlandish like "who wants to marry me for the day?" and instead of everyone freaking out, everyone would be like "hey we know those dudes! Wassup?" That would be an example of someone who is well known, and thus one way to know who the father is.


So you're interpreting this as a jokey hypothetical? That's interesting, but the discussion that follows is about how these Rabbis could do that if the women hadn't toiveled and the explanation is that the rabbis alerted the women ahead of time, so they could dunk in the mikvah beforehand.

That makes it seem like a real thing, not a hypothetical, doesn't it?


Last edited by marina on Tue, Aug 08 2017, 1:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 08 2017, 1:14 pm
gp2.0 wrote:
I also want to add that the Gemara is Torah sh'bal Peh, and once upon a time it was literally passed down from father to son through the spoken word. History has shown us that stories survive, and the best way to make a boring factoid survive is to turn it into a story - legend, folk tale, fairy tale. The scarier, the funnier, the weirder the better. Interesting stories are the ones that are remembered. It gets a little confusing when parts of religious texts become a story - because obviously we believe that a lot of it DID happen. The skill in learning Torah (which I don't pretend to have) is in knowing which parts are literal and which parts are metaphor. This is the Rambams opinion btw, not mine, and he also felt that the metaphors themselves had inherent value even if we never figured out the meaning behind them.


Also, the metaphors are usually considered like the stuff about a huge frog the size of 60 houses who was swallowed by a huge snake etc. Not about actual people - named individuals - who had 5ex with women in various cities.

I mean, what about the names? If you're just telling a crazy story, an allegory or whatever, why would you attach a person's name to this sort of conduct? Wouldn't he and his descendants be horrified?
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 08 2017, 1:16 pm
And if it's just a funny example to discuss who the dad is, why bother with discussing the details of how they arranged for mikvah, etc?
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 08 2017, 1:17 pm
energy booster wrote:
Do you think you will get the answer here? You will only make many women question Hashem's Torah.

Many things are hidden and not for our minds to make sense of.

Go find someone who is totally immersed in the Torah. Someone who can answer all your questions.

I am just wondering what your goal is? Are you really looking for answers? Or just want to mock Judaism?


Are people's beliefs so weak as to fall apart when I ask about a strange gemara?
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 08 2017, 1:40 pm
I don't know how to explain the Gemara but I agree that it's probably not meant to be taken literally( and plenty of stories that are not meant to be taken literally have tons of halakhic details and questions within the story). I wondering if the story is some sort of polemic against Christianity ( I am not saying that it is, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's one way to read it).
I also don't think that in the time of the Gemara there was this idea that sx was supposed to be about deep love and emotional connections. That's a modern concept that doesn't work well in a society where women are not equals and marriages are arranged
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 08 2017, 1:47 pm
Quote:
I wondering if the story is some sort of polemic against Christianity


How?
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 08 2017, 1:51 pm
Quote:
I also don't think that in the time of the Gemara there was this idea that sx was supposed to be about deep love and emotional connections. That's a modern concept that doesn't work well in a society where women are not equals and marriages are arranged


So is there anything fundamentally wrong with one night stands? Say a guy sleeps around, different girl every night (or vice versa).

Aside from modern-day halachic interpretations, what is wrong with this? Why do some frum people look down on those in the secular world who are more promiscuous? What's the big deal? If 5ex doesn't have to mean anything and can just be pleasure points and biology, the only restraints on people who don't follow halacha are social ones, if any.

Nothing fundamentally wrong with it? Really?
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fiji




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 08 2017, 2:01 pm
I don't think imamother is the right forum for this question. In Judaism we encourage learning and questioning, but asking a question on an obscure piece of gemara to women (who for the most part don't learn gemara) And titling the thread "this gemara displeases me" seems inappropriate to me. The question is 100% valid but should be asked to someone who can actually answer the question properly, like a rav.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 08 2017, 2:03 pm
marina wrote:
Quote:
I also don't think that in the time of the Gemara there was this idea that sx was supposed to be about deep love and emotional connections. That's a modern concept that doesn't work well in a society where women are not equals and marriages are arranged


So is there anything fundamentally wrong with one night stands? Say a guy sleeps around, different girl every night (or vice versa).

Aside from modern-day halachic interpretations, what is wrong with this? Why do some frum people look down on those in the secular world who are more promiscuous? What's the big deal? If 5ex doesn't have to mean anything and can just be pleasure points and biology, the only restraints on people who don't follow halacha are social ones, if any.

Nothing fundamentally wrong with it? Really?


I don't have a real answer and these are all good questions. I do think that one way to look at it is similar to how humanity's views on slavery, female rights and human rights have changed and evolved over time hopefully to a more moral place, where we truly see the spark of the divine in each individual regardless of his/her social status. I think our views on sxuality have become more elevated.

On the other hand sometimes I feel like maybe we are setting up ourselves for disaster and expecting monogamy to work for everyone is not so realistic
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 08 2017, 2:05 pm
marina wrote:
Quote:
I wondering if the story is some sort of polemic against Christianity


How?


I don't know the story or context well so I can't say, I'm just speculating, because I remember when I took a college course on Talmudic stories many of the obscure ones were interpreted as ways to secretly mock the christians. This is total speculation, don't quote me on this
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Faigy86




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 08 2017, 2:09 pm
marina wrote:

Aside from modern-day halachic interpretations, what is wrong with this? Why do some frum people look down on those in the secular world who are more promiscuous? What's the big deal? If 5ex doesn't have to mean anything and can just be pleasure points and biology, the only restraints on people who don't follow halacha are social ones, if any.

Nothing fundamentally wrong with it? Really?


I actually remember learning/discussing in school at some point that for Jews it is more complex because of the mitzvas aseh of chuppa and kiddushin, but for non-Jews - one night stands are totally fine because intention to be married or divorced is enough.
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