I Am Very Disturbed by This Gemara

marina

Thu, Aug 10 2017, 9:56 am

Quote:

Message - s-x doesn't always have to be "meaningful" in the sense of being an experience that's mostly about a deep, loving relationship. But it also can't be a random, unplanned encounter with no thought given to the consequences. And if a man wants to have s-x with a woman, he should be willing to marry her, even if only for a day.

In other words, 5ex doesn't have to be about a connection. It's fine to just get that release as long as the woman is financially happy.

Ugh. Sounds wrong.

PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 10 2017, 10:02 am

marina wrote:

So you're interpreting this as a jokey hypothetical? That's interesting, but the discussion that follows is about how these Rabbis could do that if the women hadn't toiveled and the explanation is that the rabbis alerted the women ahead of time, so they could dunk in the mikvah beforehand.

That makes it seem like a real thing, not a hypothetical, doesn't it?

FTR, this is from p. 1. Working my way through.
As an answer, which you might have got already, maybe this was a vehicle to discuss possible but unlikely yet necessary to discuss scenarios and other halachos.
I like gp.2's mehalech.
Have no idea how the thread has developed.
Immediate reaction to thread title: Just this one?

mommy3b2c

Thu, Aug 10 2017, 10:10 am

marina wrote:

Quote:

In other words, 5ex doesn't have to be about a connection. It's fine to just get that release as long as the woman is financially happy.

Ugh. Sounds wrong.

Your forgetting the part that he does need the women's consent. In addition, don't we all "release" sometimes. Even when we are not having s-x? It feels even better together with someone, but it feels good alone too.

PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 10 2017, 10:16 am

tichellady wrote:

I don't know how to explain the Gemara but I agree that it's probably not meant to be taken literally( and plenty of stories that are not meant to be taken literally have tons of halakhic details and questions within the story). I wondering if the story is some sort of polemic against Christianity ( I am not saying that it is, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's one way to read it).
I also don't think that in the time of the Gemara there was this idea that sx was supposed to be about deep love and emotional connections. That's a modern concept that doesn't work well in a society where women are not equals and marriages are arranged

I haven't seen it inside but doesn't the Gemara also talk about a man's obligation to make sure it's a pleasurable experience for his wife?

PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 10 2017, 10:22 am

fiji wrote:

Nowadays, however men are no longer allowed to marry two women because of Cheirem D'Rabbeinu Gershom. So clearly something has changed since the times of the Tannaim and Amoraim. Perhaps men were greater people back then who were more capable of giving loving personal attention. Important to note that most people even then did not marry more than one wife, and it can be interpreted as a bad idea for most couples based on the title "tzara" for a co-wife describing the amount of trouble and harrassment they will cause each other. As well, Marbe Nashim Marbe Kshafim, because women will turn to even witchcraft to win the sole love of their partners. But perhaps there were individuals, great men who were capable of providing love and support for more than one wife. Nowadays with the divorce rate, it seems many men are struggling with the capacity to provide love and support for even one wife R”L.

Hope this helps shed the clarity and insight you were looking for.

Very interesting post! (from p. 3)
Remember also, in those times, it could be dangerous for a woman to be unmarried so marrying someone could be a great chessed.
But yes, by and large, not always an optimal situation.

PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 10 2017, 10:26 am

marina wrote:

Here's a link of the kind we always talk about https://newyork.craigslist.org.....=frum

These are the "frum" guys on craigslist looking for 5ex in all the wrong places. Looking for frum married moms, FWB, swingers, etc.

Is there anything fundamentally wrong with this, assuming everything is consensual and no other partners are hurt? What's actually wrong with the Satmar swingers that were profiled in the Post a while back?

Ok, so halacha and adultery. But if the girl is unmarried? Threesomes, two girls one guy, or just random hookups guy with a girl? Many pple are like, hey if it doesn't hurt anyone, so what.

People - here and elsewhere - read these ads and are appalled and disgusted. But why? Is it fundamentally wrong because 5ex is supposed to be meaningful or is it not wrong at all, but society just sort of looks down on it in this particular period in time?

This is really a question about the Truth with a capital T and I dk if there's any answer.

What does the woman get from it? Any financial security and social standing?

Laiya

Thu, Aug 10 2017, 10:29 am

marina wrote:

Quote:

In other words, 5ex doesn't have to be about a connection. It's fine to just get that release as long as the woman is financially happy.

Ugh. Sounds wrong.

Excellent post by Ora, and others.

I think there was a certain pragmatism in ancient times. Life spans were shorter, maternal and infant mortality rates were high, long-distance communication was difficult, and women were generally not financially independent.

Looser views were necessary for propagating the species and protecting women.

And yet, there are also many examples where Torah clearly values the relationship between husband and wife as elevated in a spiritual and emotional sense. Shir Hashirim. Hashem spending all His time (so to speak) making matches. The many instances in Navi where Hashem’s relationship with BY is compared to lovers and spouses. The many quotes in gemara about finding a wife = finding happiness. Etc.

But as was pointed out by prev posters, it doesn’t seem to have been a rigid black and white, either/or, emotional bond or meaningless physical act. It seems our views today are far more rigid.

PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 10 2017, 10:35 am

mommy3b2c wrote:

How about Sarah telling Abraham to marry Hagar?

Rachel telling yaakov to marry bilhaah?

Totally different. The idea was for these women to have babies for the imahos to raise. Hagar had trouble molding herself in Sarah's image to do this successfully; Bilhah and Zilpah did not, which is why they were zoche to bear and raise the shevatim. (Rabbi Orlofsky has a shiur on TorahAnytime on this.)

PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 10 2017, 10:45 am

SpottedBanana wrote:

I agree mostly, but it's not quite that bad -- it does say v'hayu l'basar echad. Some say the basar is the baby, but some say it's the couple becoming like one person. That is meaningful, even if it doesn't make intimacy this extremely emotional, spiritual experience that it couldn't be for most people until they grew to love each other. Chassidish people and very yeshivish people also don't love each other until a while after the wedding too, am I wrong on that? But presumably they're intimate anyway and not a single puppy dies Smile

Yeah, but they should really like each other and be excited about marriage and going through life together. I guess this is somewhere between infatuation and love, and it deepens and ripens and improves with age.

SixOfWands

Thu, Aug 10 2017, 10:50 am

marina wrote:

This is literally the most depressing thing I read today.

As an aside, zera levatala & niddah have nothing to do with life - sperm die even if not released and women aren't tomei unless they bleed.

Its not "life" per se, its procreation. A fertility rite.

You have a system in place where there are about two weeks out of a month with no 5exual contact. The man cannot even m@sturbat5. So at the of that time, you have a horny, fertile couple.

Its not about sperm dying. Its about them getting to the right place at the right time.

marina

Thu, Aug 10 2017, 11:15 am

PinkFridge wrote:

What does the woman get from it? Any financial security and social standing?

Let's say she does. Let's say it's a sugar daddy situation and she brags to her friends about how fantastic this is and what an important guy she's sleeping with.

Does that make it better?

marina

Thu, Aug 10 2017, 11:20 am

Laiya wrote:

And yet, there are also many examples where Torah clearly values the relationship between husband and wife as elevated in a spiritual and emotional sense. Shir Hashirim. Hashem spending all His time (so to speak) making matches. The many instances in Navi where Hashem’s relationship with BY is compared to lovers and spouses. The many quotes in gemara about finding a wife = finding happiness. Etc.

But as was pointed out by prev posters, it doesn’t seem to have been a rigid black and white, either/or, emotional bond or meaningless physical act. It seems our views today are far more rigid.

Look I get that a couple isn't always going to have Tantric 5ex and become one soul. Sometimes it's just fun.

But this is the opposite extreme. A person that you have no long term connection to, someone you're just marrying ~~for a day~~, for the fun and nothing else. And in the next city it will be fun with someone else.

We all agree that 5ex can and should be fun and sometimes just a release and nothing more. But isn't that in the context of a meaningful relationship? Or are we okay with literally one-night stands?

marina

Thu, Aug 10 2017, 11:23 am

SixOfWands wrote:

interesting. So your idea is that all the issurim here are for the purpose of starving the couple so they procreate? I'll have to think on that.

imasoftov

Thu, Aug 10 2017, 11:56 am

PinkFridge wrote:

I haven't seen it inside but doesn't the Gemara also talk about a man's obligation to make sure it's a pleasurable experience for his wife?

Earlier this week the S/O Lingerie for kallah thread (somewhere on page 3) discussed this.

SixOfWands

Thu, Aug 10 2017, 12:07 pm

browser wrote:

It doesn't make sense. Cant believe its literal. If they couldn't be away with out a "partner" for a day or two then how did they keep nidda?

(1) Presumably, they're gone for more than a day or two. These were days before rail, automotive or air travel.

(2) If you are permitted to have a Wife for a Night, you need not keep nidda. If Wife 1 is nidda, take yourself a new one!

PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 10 2017, 12:37 pm

Imasoftov, thanks. I was surprised I could actually open the thread, usually I can't with "lingerie" in the title yet I did. I went to p. 5 by mistake first, then got blocked when I went back to p. 3. I did see reference to a letter from the Steipler and I'll say this: A few years ago a noted kallah teacher (not local) spoke and she said that she spoke to a number of gedolim, and I believe she mentioned that letter too, and that it was important for women to know that it should be pleasurable and that this is how a couple becomes one.
Anyway, I don't go to intimacy threads but wanted to acknowledge your link.