Trump's remarks | Imamother

Fox

Thu, Aug 17 2017, 9:20 am

fmt4 wrote:

The main difference between the two ideologies is that nazism/ fascism glorifies and promotes violence as an end, not just as a means.
Antifa sees violence as a means to stop fascism, as a form of self defense against an ideology that seeks to do violence against its members and others.
It's very clear that one is evil and one isn't. Violence doesn't equal evil.
Would you consider the resistance/underground during WW2 as equivalent to the nazis? They were certainly extremely violent, often instigating conflicts, even at times hurting "innocent" Germans.
I'm not saying that I agree with violent tactics. I'm saying that just because both sides use violence , that doesn't mean that they are morally equivalent. There is a lot of nuance and context that you are glossing over.

I think this summarizes the misunderstanding regarding Antifa.

In this specific incident, Antifa was on the right side. I don't think anyone here needs to be convinced that Nazis and white supremacists are bad.

But normalizing Antifa is dangerous. Most of us are fine with the idea that they confronted Nazis. Hey, go for it! But that's not how it works. Antifa wants the right to define whom they consider a "Nazi" or "racist" and act accordingly.

Consider some of these Antifa actions and beliefs:

1. Destruction of property is not "violence" and is completely justified when fighting racism, etc.

2. Anyone whom they consider "right-wing" is considered a fascist. On this pretext, threats were made against an annual Portland parade because a Repubican organization was being allowed to march. The parade was canceled for safety concerns.

3. Hate speech = violence. Again, with Antifa retaining the right to decide the definition of hate speech. Therefore, it is justified to shut down any speech they find objectionable.

4. Antifa regards police and law enforcement as illegitimate representatives of oppression and believes their authority should be resisted on principle.

5. They believe physical and economic intimidation is justified, whether against individuals or larger entities.

6. Antifa believes that the economy and media is controlled by elites who must be overthrown before justice can be achieved.

Is any of this sounding familiar? It should. It doesn't differ significantly from Nazis believe; it just focuses on different alleged villains -- sometimes. Some of the groups allied with Antifa are openly anti-Semitic.

Refusing to condemn Antifa or whitewashing their beliefs and tactics because they happen to also hate Nazis is the classic case of feeding the tiger in the hope that he'll eat you last.

fmt4

Thu, Aug 17 2017, 9:30 am

Fox wrote:

Can you give a source for all this please?

Also, I still don't see this as evil. Evil is believing that certain groups deserve to
be obliterated because of the color of their skin or their race. That some people are inherently superior and deserve to live on this planet more than others. That is different from
Hating a certain ideology.

Fox

Thu, Aug 17 2017, 9:57 am

fmt4 wrote:

None of this is secret. You can check Google for links to Antifa blogs and websites. There are separate websites for Antifa in most major cities and a number of smaller ones.

Here's a quote from Midwest Straight Edge Antifa:

Quote:

Us vegan straight edge anti-fascists in particular are equally “inspired” to violently smash every meeting and march held by fascists. We say “violently” because in response to this new white pride celebration Midwest Straight Edge Antifa has no interest in appealing to non-violent liberalism. We reject victimhood and find beauty in the destruction of capital-industrial society and all hierarchies including but not limited to white supremacy. The bottom line is we intend to create dangerous spaces for fascists everywhere- the vegan and/or straight edge community included.

Now, as I said, if we could count on Antifa's definition of "fascist" as being the same as ours, then there's no problem.

But read that paragraph carefully. Fascism isn't just racists. It's the "capital-industrial society" and "all hierarchies." In fact, it seems they're ready to root out fascists among their own groups.

And what happens when "capital-industrial society" is destroyed. Venezuela is what happens. The Soviet Union is what happens. Cuba is what happens. Yes, racism and racial supremacy are evil. No quarrel with that. But if you don't believe what's going on in Venezuela is evil, too, then you have a stronger stomach than I do.

marina

Thu, Aug 17 2017, 11:55 pm

I liked this op-ed, particularly this part:

Quote:

It’s time to stop looking at the latest Trump statement in relation to how bad you think the alternative is on the Left, or how biased the media is, and instead to compare it to what we should actually expect from a president. In a country where 99 percent of the population is opposed to Nazis, it should be the easiest thing in the world for an American president to unite the country by appealing to our shared values. Only Trump could take one of the most uncontroversial ideas in American politics, the Indiana Jones Rule, and turn it into a wrenching national argument.

http://thefederalist.com/2017/.....rday/

33055

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 3:10 am

marina wrote:

I don't understand.

Do you, Fox and Sushilover, posit that the only (or most) people protesting against the Neo Nazis were the Antifa movement members?

Why do you think so? What's your source?

And if that's true, why did it turn out that way, in your perspective? Where are all the non-Antifa anti-Nazi protesters?

Do you posit that only people against the removal of the statutes are neo-nazis?

62 percent of Americans want the statues to stay, and just 27 percent believe they should be removed because they’re offensive to some.
This is according to the PBS NewsHour, NPR and Marist Poll.

The left consistently misses the fact that nearly two in three want the statutes to remain as historical figures.

All they are interested in is denouncing Trump as bad. They are missing there are good people on both sides. They also miss the fact there are bad people on both sides.

They are out of touch.

marina

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 5:11 am

Squishy wrote:

ok so your position is that many moderates came to protest along with the leftist extremist groups, and similarly many moderates came to march with the Nazis just because they were against the statutes.

is that your position? this is also Trump's position.

I find this implausible. This was billed in advance as a Nazi event. The poster (below) advertising the parade left no room for doubt as to who was invited. There's no reason to think that the people who showed up to the Nazi parade thought they would just be peacefully protesting the statue's removal.

there's really no support for Trump's contention. None. Not the first time either lol.

Last edited by marina on Fri, Aug 18 2017, 6:54 am; edited 1 time in total

PinkFridge

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 6:07 am

marina wrote:

I liked this op-ed, particularly this part:

Quote:

http://thefederalist.com/2017/.....rday/

I liked your post. And pardon the picayune detail, but what is the Indiana Jones rule? I couldn't open the link and google is giving me differing definitions.

(And re my earlier Doonesbury reference, I'm getting deeper into the anthology which "covers" the 2000 campaign [think Bush, Warren Beatty, Jesse Ventura, and yes, DJT]. In retrospect, he wasn't fully on target with Bush. Bush is not illiterate and has always been intellectually curious. But the DJT stuff is incredibly spot on, other than his being between wives at that point. ["Mr. Trump, who will be your First Bimbo?"])

sushilover

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 7:04 am

marina wrote:

I wasn't going to continue this conversation as my questions were being ignored, and it gets tiring being called a nazi defender for my sin of calling out evil ideologies. But since you asked me a direct question, I have no problem responding.
I don't know if the majority of the counter protesters were antifa, but (I hope) the violent counter protesting was caused by antifa. (If non Antifa anti nazi protesters were violent, then that is worrying. Note that according to the police, the antifa violence was not simply self defense.)

Even if a woman were not killed, I would think of white nationalists as the scum of the earth.
You said you don't consider antifa worthy of your condemnation because they at least managed to not kill someone. Westboro Babtist Church never killed anyone at their rallies. Do you not condemn them?

I condemn both violent and freedom hating ideologies involved in this incident.
I condemn Trump for saying there were good people at the white supremacist rally. I condemn him for not calling out the neo nazis by name until Monday. I am considering condemning him for not calling out antifa by name, but I can understand why he didn't. I condemn him for differentiating between the alt right and white supremacy.
I condemn politicians and those in the media who are defending the evil of antifa by using false moral equivalences. (antifa does not become good because you think neo nazis are worse. And no, antifa is not the same as the Allied forces at Dunkirk)

If that means that people on this site call me a nazi defender, then know that you are losing your credibility for when you call out actual evil.

Last edited by sushilover on Fri, Aug 18 2017, 7:19 am; edited 2 times in total

33055

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 7:05 am

marina wrote:

ok so your position is that many moderates came to protest along with the leftist extremist groups, and similarly many moderates came to march with the Nazis just because they were against the statutes.

is that your position? this is also Trump's position.

I find this implausible. This was billed many months in advance as a Nazi event. The poster advertising the parade left no room for doubt as to who was invited. There's no reason to think that the people who showed up to the Nazi parade thought they would just be peacefully protesting the statue's removal.

there's really no support for Trump's contention. None. Not the first time either lol.

The parade is evil. The Antifas are evil.

"Racism is evil -- and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans," This was Trump's response over the weekend.

"Those who spread violence in the name of bigotry strike at the very core of America," Trump further stated.

What is more nuisanced is what is going on with the statutes. The silent majority support not destroying them. 2 out 3 want them saved rather than this frenzied pace of destroying history. The left is once again so out of touch with what the silent majority wants. 62% want them saved. 27% want them destroyed because they offend some. I wonder what the percentage they offend actually offend is.

Why does what the left want weigh more than what the majority wants? Why do they get to shut down and destroy what they don't like?

The silent majority is for law and order not the violence, temper tantrums, destruction, and rioting which is becoming associated with the left.

Like it or not, the destruction of the statutes was the genesis of the events in Charlottesville. But for the destruction of the statutes, this thread would not have started.

sushilover

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 7:14 am

marina wrote:

I liked this op-ed, particularly this part:

Quote:

http://thefederalist.com/2017/.....rday/

Very thought provoking article. Thank you for sharing .
THe only thing I disagree with is the idea that since Trump did some disgusting and condemnable actions, you must distance yourself from everything Trump. Do I also distance myself from his condemnation of neo nazis which the mother of the Charlottesville victim thanked him for? Do I distance myself from anything good he can do in the future? In my opinion, the right can condemn him for what he did wrong without having to actually pronounce him a neo nazi and evil.

Here's one more good quote in the article you posted;

Quote:

Trump did say a few things that were true in his Q&A—that “antifa” counter-protesters came spoiling for a fight and share responsibility for the violent brawls (as described by multiple reporters and witnesses), or that there is a serious logical question about where you draw the line in tearing down monuments to historical figures. But that just makes it worse. By mixing genuine truths with an odious lie, Trump merely works to discredit the truth.

marina

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 7:34 am

Quote:

You said you don't consider antifa worthy of your condemnation because they at least managed to not kill someone. Westboro Babtist Church never killed anyone at their rallies. Do you not condemn them?

I don't think that I don't condemn antifa. It's just that the Neo Nazis conduct and beliefs are so abhorrent that calling out the other side feels like equating the two. It would be completely different if antifa suddenly showed up randomly somewhere and started stirring **** up.

Look, I totally feel your pain. A few years ago there was violence in Israel, Jews were killed, and in response there were Palestinian civilian casualties. At some point I started a thread just about how sad it is that Palestinian infants and children died as a result.

You would have thought I suggested cannibalism.

People went batshit. There's literally a 10-20 page thread where almost every single poster explains to me that I am an evil, self hating liberal Jew who is pro-Palestinian and wants every Jew dead.

This happens somewhat frequently, and at some point I just learned that people look at things in context and by comparison, not on the statements' own merits. So too here. The vast majority of both sides condemn violence from whichever group. But emphasizing that both sides were wrong *at this time* suggests that you're equating the two, which I don't know that you really are.

marina

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 7:43 am

Quote:

Why does what the left want weigh more than what the majority wants? Why do they get to shut down and destroy what they don't like?

1. I am going to challenge you on some of your data here. Maybe you're right about the statues, but here's a Pew Research poll showing that most Americans do not support leaving the flag up. http://www.people-press.org/20.....lity/

So it's a little more complicated than just saying the majority wants all historical symbols to stay.

2. Even if they do, I dk that making decisions via majority vote is optimal or even ethical. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, there are towns in America where majorities occasionally decide that circumcision or shechita is barbaric. I don't think what the majority wants is particularly dispositive in those cases, meaning that it doesn't end the conversation - we're not going say, okey doke no more bris milah in California bc the majority want it gone.

Last edited by marina on Fri, Aug 18 2017, 7:46 am; edited 1 time in total

marina

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 7:46 am

Quote:

Like it or not, the destruction of the statutes was the genesis of the events in Charlottesville. But for the destruction of the statutes, this thread would not have started.

Do you really think the Neo Nazi would have stayed home had the statues never existed in the first place? If I just google right now, I can find so many Neo Nazi marches that just start up for whatever reason. Or are you still arguing that the majority here were not Nazis, but rather peaceful people who just wanted their voices heard about the statues?

Lol I keep writing statutes. In law school I kept writing statues.

marina

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 8:42 am

sushilover wrote:

What fundamental right would removing or not removing a statue conflict with? It's a matter of opinion that could definitely be voted on, and your opinion is not worth less than mine just because of the color of your skin.

Sorry I forgot to respond to this earlier.

People want the statues removed because they consider them racist symbols that foment and encourage, or at least venerate bigotry. Living your life free of racism is plausibly a fundamental right, at least as enshrined by the 14th Amendment

People want the statues kept because they value preserving history. Living your life with preserved history is not considered a fundamental right by anything in the Constitution.

SixOfWands

Fri, Aug 18 2017, 8:57 am

marina wrote:

I wonder if people here have a problem with the removal of this gem of a statue:

Its history, right?

But I don't think any of this has to do with a bunch of ugly statues. Its an excuse, not a cause.