Areas where modern orthodox are more machmir

tichellady

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 1:24 am

ibelongtosomebody wrote:

Quote: It's hard for me to understand how you can separate halakha from values. How do you think halakhic decisions are made?

Halakhic decisions are not based on human biases to certain values; they are drawn from a halakhic process, the details of which were given to Moshe at Sinai. And pseudo-psak that derives from personal values is not granted legitimacy because "this is what our community values."

The primary "value" in halakha? Hayarei vehachareid m'dvar Hashem!

Have you ever learned the story of the tanur shel achnai?

amother

Ruby

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 1:25 am

ibelongtosomebody wrote:

This is a very simplistic view of halacha. In fact, psak halacha deals with competing Torah values all the time.

Keeping shabbos is a value. So is saving a life. When you have to choose, which wins? Getting rid of chometz is a value. So is not causing financial loss. Hence, in some communities, the loophole of selling chometz rather than getting rid of it. Do you prioritize kibbud av v-em or your own spouse?

This is how the system works. Otherwise there would be just one black and white rule book, no local minhag and no need for rabbis in different communities. But the fact is that halacha is vibrant and dynamic.

salt

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 1:26 am

I am going to be a little bold and try to summarize everything I've read in this thread so far.
Basically the mitzvoth/halachot/values that you're talking about fall into two categories:
bein adam la-makom
Bein adam le-chavero

All the areas of halacha that OP listed are bein adam le-chavero.

I know this is a HUGE generalization but I would say that in many cases, people who catergorize themselves as MO, maybe pay more attention to be careful in mitzvoth bein-adam-le-chavero, even if it means slightly overlooking bein-adam-lemakom (example that was given, eating out with less observant relatives, even if it means being more lax that you'd like to usually be in kashrut). And people who define themselves as 'charedi' are possibly more stringent on mitzvoth-bein-adam-lamakom - even if it means overlooking people-related mitzvoth.

Before I get screamed at, this is a generalization, obviously not everyone is like this, and obviously not one is better than the other. It's just an observation.
Everyone must learn from the other and work on the fields that they are weaker in.

(Just an anecdote that came to mind - our neighbor pointed it out, and we had a laugh, he went to two shiurim one evening - one in the charedi shul in our area, and one in the dati-leumi shul - the first shiur was on the topic of cutting the sides of your beard, and the exact halachic areas where you must and must not cut, and the second was about how halacha views environmental issues like recycling.
Both were interesting and well given over, he said, but the difference in topic was sharp)

tichellady

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 1:29 am

etky wrote:

Yellow - I can't like your posts enough.
This thread makes me very uncomfortable, not least because it can only be based on subjective generalizations about the various streams of Judaism that it brings up for discussion.
And yes, tikun olam is a concept that in its most modern iteration has been borrowed from the non-Orthodox streams of Judaism who are its most ardent champions - and for whom it unfortunately often becomes the sum total of what Judaism is about.

Yes this is all about generalizations, I get why that's bothersome. But we are on imamother where that tends to be the case and I thought it might be nice to have some more positive generalizations about the modern orthodox community because lately I have been seeing more negative ones ( even in threads where I think people aren't trying to be rude or judgmental but are making certain assumptions without even realizing about how frum = Not modern orthodox and not frum = modern orthodox )

ibelongtosomebody

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 1:30 am

Quote:

This is a very simplistic view of halacha. In fact, psak halacha deals with competing Torah values all the time.

Keeping shabbos is a value. So is saving a life. When you have to choose, which wins? Getting rid of chometz is a value. So is not causing financial loss. Hence, in some communities, the kula of selling chometz rather than getting rid of it. Do you prioritize kibbud av v-em or your own spouse?

This is how the system works. Otherwise there would be just one black and white rule book, no local minhag and no need for rabbis in different communities. But the fact is that halacha is vibrant and dynamic.

________________

Of course. But the decision between values is derived from a halachic process, with laws that govern how we derive the final psak, and not from one's personal bias toward a certain value.

tichellady

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 1:33 am

salt wrote:

Interesting point but I think some of the examples were not bein Adam lachavaro, like Talmud Torah, niddah, cruelty to animals ( I was thinking about not using chicken for kapaprot and not eating veal)

amother

Ruby

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 1:34 am

ibelongtosomebody wrote:

Which part of what I wrote should I re-explain?
And why is your question relevant? (In answer: I'm married to a notable Talmid Chochom, with constant glimpses into the halachic decision process. I haven't personally studied Gemaras in the halachic sense, though I have learned numerous aggadahs.)

Part of Torah mi-Sinai is the ability of chachamim to weigh competing values. No one's saying, I like trying all foods, so let's allow eating pork. But it's quite possible that a Rav will say that if your health depends on eating a food of questionable kashrus, we'll value health over kashrus.

amother

Ruby

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 1:50 am

A further thought: some decisions are outside the realm of halacha, but have halachic ramifications. For example, is it good or bad to be insulated/isolated from general culture? There's precedent and good arguments in both directions. Whichever you choose will then affect some of your halachic decisions. Both sides are operating within the halachic system, but the initial value decision will play into the outcome.

salt

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 1:56 am

tichellady wrote:

Talmud Torah for women, maybe I'm wrong, but I see it a little as being in the bein-adam-lechavero category, since it's more of an equality between the genders ideal. I don't think any MO woman would say she has a Halachic obligation like men to study Torah, and therefore she is being stringent in carrying out that obligation. But it's more that since she has the opportunity and the right to do so, she shall take advantage of it and enjoy and benefit the studying.

Nidda I didn't see in your list - I guess I missed it somewhere in the thread. Did someone say MO are more strict with nidda. Not sure. That's individual.

Cruelty to animals is 'bein-adam-lechayot' Smile

- yes I would agree that charedim are less caring about that (again generalization)

etky

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 2:06 am

ibelongtosomebody wrote:

Human beings are not mathematical calculators and halacha is not an exact science. Halachic outcomes will always be subjective to some degree and that subjectivity is inevitably a product of a posek's background, his worldview and his priorities. Certain concepts and values will be more influential than others in certain communities and this leaning will inevitably seep into and influence the psika of poskim raised in a particular mindset. The halachic process is, to some degree, subservient to hashkafa.

moonstone

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 2:50 am

etky wrote:

I have to agree. I don't really understand the point of this thread. I'm MO, and to me it just sounds like a game of one-upmanship. We all know that MO schools put more value on secular education and careers, so it's like you're just pointing out that we're superior in this area. And all the other things on your list- some MO communities are great at these things, others aren't - and the same could probably be said about other sects of Judaism. While I'm sure you're just trying to say positive things about Modern Orthodoxy, it sort of seems like a put-down to everyone else.

amother

Ruby

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 3:02 am

moonstone wrote:

You could be right. I think it's also possible to see this as a way of getting to know a community that is unfamiliar to many posters
Lots of them have heard that to be MO means to be lazy about halacha.

LovesHashem

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 3:24 am

I agree with the fact that MO is more adam vichaveiro and other sects are more focused on limakom.
It is an observation and doesn't mean that other sects don't have ahavas yisroel, or MO don't daven. It means that they focus on both area but I see more emphasis placed on either side, not even on purpose.

In any case, can someone tell me what is Tikkun Olam? A few posters criticized that it doesn't come from Orthodoxy, and I'm not so sure. I'm chareidi, and I think I've heard of this concept and may even be able to provide a source. I'm just really bad with names, so if someone would explain what it is than I could know if it's what I have in my mind or not.

amother

Maroon

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 5:47 am

I am not MO but MO seem to be so much more common sense in many areas, such as allowing children individual growth (if one boy wants to join the army, why not? if one wants to go to university, please, yes.). Also regarding hechsherim they seem to be so much more common sense, if you are traveling and your kids are hungry and there is only chalav stam around or a kosher place with a "lesser" hechsher, they would not starve for some obscure idea of "holiness".
They also are more interested in the outside world and politics and do not think "goyyim" are behemas.....

SuperWify

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 6:14 am

amother wrote:

I find this reply so insulting. Are you insinuating that more RW people don't have common sense???? I think all Jews use common sense when making descions, but everyones uses their OWN UNIQUE SENSES to make them. In our defense:
1. We use common sense and therefore if we send our kids to the army/ university they will have a very high probability of gaining wrong values and ideas or throwing away all we tried raising them with. (I think this makes a lot of sense)
That is not to say there is never exceptions and that we don't believe in raising each child according to his needs. We do.
2. If we are stuck somewhere and the kids are hungry most people would allow the kids to eat OU-D and even the adults.
( my dad is extremely RW and whenever we went to his parents who live oot we ALL eat ou-d)
3. What makes u think that:
A. We aren't interested in politics (H-ll, u bet we are)
B. We think non jews are behamos?????
That is a very narrow minded and cruel assumption. We believe non-Jews are endowed with a Tzekem Elokoim and are worthy of respect. We may not mingle with them as much as you do though, but that doesn't mean we think they are animals! It's just our common sense directing us....

I respect every community. I respect the MO very much. I love how on a whole, they are more respectful, have better middos, and very welcoming. In general, they are less non-judgmental (maybe learn that from them)

Please do not criticize under an anonymous sn.

Last edited by SuperWify on Thu, Aug 24 2017, 6:49 am; edited 1 time in total

June

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 6:21 am

amother wrote:

I'm sorry that your parents didn't raise you "al pi darkech," or starved you when you traveled. I'm sorry your parents raised you to think non-Jews are animals.

That was YOUR experience; no one I know has the attitude you're describing.

etky

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 6:27 am

salt wrote:

In Aleynu Leshabeyach, 2nd paragraph, we say "letaken olam bemalchut shadai" - I always understood it as meaning making the world a better and more G-dly place - getting rid of idol worship, making a Kiddush hashem, bringing the whole of mankind to acknowledge that Hashem is King. That's the context in Aleynu anyway.
Just my understanding, no halachic source.

The concept of Tikkun Olam in its contemporary sense of social justice and action (as in the ideology famously espoused by Tikkun magazine) has been the mantra of non-Orthodox denominations of Judaism for the past half-century or so. Much of their religious energy is directed towards the realization of this goal.
This particular meaning of the term actually has roots going back to rabbinic literature but back then it was hardly the sort of prevailing value or mission that it has become today.
Later, in kabbalistic literature the term took on other, mystical meanings.
There is also the meaning that you mentioned - of ridding the world of idolatry.

June

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 6:33 am

Interesting premise OP.

I think every stream of Judaism has their areas they are better and worse in. One group's strength makes up for another's weakness, and then as one nation we are perfect in our avodas Hashem.

I just want to take issue with your putting tikkun olam at the top of the list. Tikkun olam as a concept has been hijacked by non-Orthodox SJWs, who replaced following the Torah with "saving the world." It also brings to mind Richard Silverstein, who is totally puke-worthy.

Tikkun Olam is not a mitzvah or Halacha on its own - it's a concept that different groups interpret differently. For example, chareidim hold that tikkun olam means working on yourself, thereby fixing the world. Obviously, all growing Jews regardless of subgroup are machmir in that.