Areas where modern orthodox are more machmir

PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 8:38 am

cnc wrote:

I'm not trying to put a negative spin on things, I'm trying to clarify what exactly this thread is saying. Is your list focusing on what MO communities are specifically MORE makpid on than other communities?

I am so glad to see this thread still open and look forward to tackling the next few pages. Because I do want to unpack the OP. Much of it sounds more like values and frankly, we do all share them.

OK, TBC.

PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 8:42 am

tichellady wrote:

I do think this, but that's just my perspective. One example is modern orthodox people who will eat at less reputable kosher restaurants etc with family ( who are not orthodox) but won't eat there normally or will eat at relatives homes whose level of kashrut is less than theirs but is still ok on a basic level

One of the issues I see in our community is men coming late to shul and I think that the positive way of seeing that ( which I think is actually true) is that men are very involved in home life and spending time with kids in the morning, setting the table etc so families often come together to shul around 10, instead of the husbands leaving the wives with a house full of kids at 8:30. ( I'm not saying this is good or bad, I think there are good and bad parts to it, just like there are good and bad parts to having a community culture where men are expected to get to shul on time)

I know many BTs and people who are stricter than their parents who will eat in their parents' home, with halachic guidance.

And my very RW talmid chochom father, a"h, regularly davened shacharis at home during the week to be able to help my mother in the mornings during the more hectic younger years.
As far as men who don't, often they will prioritize getting mother's helpers, or help out in other ways.

I do appreciate your positive spin. We should all look at everyone that way!

PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 8:46 am

tichellady wrote:

Another example- in my community we hold that non Jews today are not considered like gentiles of the past who were idol worshippers who we could only save on Shabbat because of fear, or whom we could cheat and steal from if they wouldn't realize so we are actually more strict- in the sense that more Is expected of us in terms of how we treat gentiles

Two words: Rav Schwab, zt"l.

And two more: kol hakavod. I went to a produce store and told the cashier that he undercharged me. Had he waved me on, I would have been fine with that, but I waited for the manager and paid the rest.

(Halachically it was a small amount and I was under no obligation to do that. Had I been in the car, I might not have got out to right things.)

amother

Magenta

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 8:53 am

PinkFridge wrote:

And my very RW talmid chochom father, a"h, regularly davened shacharis at home during the week to be able to help my mother in the mornings during the more hectic younger years.
As far as men who don't, often they will prioritize getting mother's helpers, or help out in other ways.

I was just going to post a similar comment.
We have extended family going through a tough time (illness) and my dh wanted to invite the kids to stay here for shabbos. Their children are difficult and he said we should do it even if it means he might have to daven at home.

We are charedi and we value both bein adom lechavero and bein adom lemakom equally. When the two conflict then the question is which one is more important halachically.
There will be cases when the latter (bein adom lemakom) is more important and does win.

I do agree that MO communities excel in bein adam lechavero in the sense of being more accepting of people's differences.

PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 8:56 am

tichellady wrote:

That is what I meant. I am also open to being wrong about this. I have just been thinking a lot about this and the fact that every decision can be made differently depending on which value you value more- and value over ritual observance often seems more important than other values in some communities

But there are probably lots of ways to see this, not one at

What is this ritual observance thing? It's a mitzvah and one is obligated in mitzvos. One might decide that the mitzvah of helping his wife is so necessary at this point that he must do that instead. And he might daven earlier, or, before he goes to shul, if it's late, he might take time to say krias shema so he doesn't miss the zman. Or he might miss minyan altogether but I certainly hope he will take care to daven properly. However you slice it, I can see someone being very particular in his "ritual observance."

amother

Lavender

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 9:02 am

I have to say MO are nice to non jews, animals, other MO, but as a yeshivish woman I have felt looked down upon and ignored. Maybe this is just my experience. Tikun plan is nothing to do with Torah. Aka having a huge program about Martin Luther King under the heading tikun plan. Very nice but not much to do with yiddishkeit. The way I see MO is people who are trying their best to be good, honest, kind, accomplished, people. Just not so much to do with yiddishkeit.

PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 9:05 am

amother wrote:

Well, technically all Orthodox Jews believe in strictly following halacha. What your thread seems to be about is the areas the people in your community place emphasize in their halachic lives.

No branch of Orthodoxy that I'm aware of makes a conscious choice to be meikil on any of these mitzvot. It's simply a matter of believing that value x supercedes value y when determining the halacha. Thus, halacha may be interpreted differently. Again, that is not at all the opposite of being machmir on that mitzvah.

Btw, I suspect that what you call "tikun olam" does not have a source in orthodoxy. It certainly is not a halachic concept.

Amother yellow, I am beginning to wonder if I should bow out and just let you speak for me ;-) I knew I'd be repetitive.

As far as tikkun olam, I always thought the source was Aleinu. But there, it's Hashem's to effect, not ours. What tikkun olam has come to mean is caring for the greater world. Which is a great thing, but often externalized. There's a very sweet book called The Power of Half in which a family sells their house, moves to a cheaper house, and plans, together, how to spend the money for the greater good. There is an episode where one of the kids can't help a handicapped kid because of another project she's working on. Now understand, this is obviously a very fine family, with an amazing ethos, but I remember that passage and felt that she ended up objectifying the friend, making the friend another project, a cheftza shel mitzvah.

As important as being good citizens, good stewards, good neighbors is, even more important actually, is the micro, and working on ourselves and our middos. So many people get off the hook doing something for tikkun olam. I think of all the bar/bat mitzvah notices I read in the local Jewish paper (not frum) and see "helped in the temple picnic" as a mitzvah project. Vs. "is a volunteer in [fill in the blank. Friendship Circle is a fine option and b"h not an uncommon one]." One impacts a person on a much more immediate level.

Of course we can multitask and work on the micro and macro at the same time. We should. We just need a healthy balance.

PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 9:11 am

amother wrote:

This is a very simplistic view of halacha. In fact, psak halacha deals with competing Torah values all the time.

Keeping shabbos is a value. So is saving a life. When you have to choose, which wins? Getting rid of chometz is a value. So is not causing financial loss. Hence, in some communities, the loophole of selling chometz rather than getting rid of it. Do you prioritize kibbud av v-em or your own spouse?

This is how the system works. Otherwise there would be just one black and white rule book, no local minhag and no need for rabbis in different communities. But the fact is that halacha is vibrant and dynamic.

One is not being meikel on Shabbos but machmir on pikuach nefesh. Or maybe that's not correct. Just that in this situation the halacha is that pikuach nefesh is doche Shabbos.

As far as selling chometz, it's a legitimate approach in the case of serious financial loss. But I don't quite get the analogy. Your kibbud horim vs. spouse prioritizing is a better example IMO.

LovesHashem

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 10:04 am

PinkFridge wrote:

As far as tikkun olam, I always thought the source was Aleinu. But there, it's Hashem's to effect, not ours. What tikkun olam has come to mean is caring for the greater world. Which is a great thing, but often externalized. There's a very sweet book called The Power of Half in which a family sells their house, moves to a cheaper house, and plans, together, how to spend the money for the greater good. There is an episode where one of the kids can't help a handicapped kid because of another project she's working on. Now understand, this is obviously a very fine family, with an amazing ethos, but I remember that passage and felt that she ended up objectifying the friend, making the friend another project, a cheftza shel mitzvah.

As important as being good citizens, good stewards, good neighbors is, even more important actually, is the micro, and working on ourselves and our middos. So many people get off the hook doing something for tikkun olam. I think of all the bar/bat mitzvah notices I read in the local Jewish paper (not frum) and see "helped in the temple picnic" as a mitzvah project. Vs. "is a volunteer in [fill in the blank. Friendship Circle is a fine option and b"h not an uncommon one]." One impacts a person on a much more immediate level.

Of course we can multitask and work on the micro and macro at the same time. We should. We just need a healthy balance.

Tikun Olam literally means rectification of the world. To rectify is to fix, and to fix, means something is broken. Caring about the world is chesed. Fixing up the world is a duty.

Aleinu- "Therefore we put our hope in You, Adonai our God,
to soon see the glory of
Your strength, to remove all idols from the Earth,
and to completely cut off
all false gods; to repair the world, Your holy
empire. "

Sounds like this is talking about moshiach, and is something we hope will happen then, not a change we make.

The Tikun Olam I know refers to the fact we are all a peice of Adam Harishon's neshoma (Michtav Eliyahu vol 1 p. 249-250), and we all have a personal tikun, and by doing it we fix up the negative effect that adam harishon's sin had on the world as a whole. To rectify what is missing we are given halachic challenges, otherwise known as nisyonot. (Mesilot Yesharim Perek 1) and this is the true meaning of happineiss in this world (Maharal, Chidushei Agados Shabbos 139a)

amother

Seashell

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 10:21 am

amother wrote:

Mitzvos are not ritual observances. They are commandments from Hashem on how we should live our lives. Huge difference! Not something to be taken lightly. It's like seeing judiasm as a culture. Judaism is not a culture it is a religion this means it's not just about actions but deep strong beleifs.

Actually - Jews are a nation - with a G-d who has set down rules to follow. Within the nation there are pious people (frum = G-d fearing/revering ) and people who aren't. Within the frum community there is a range of how that frumkeit is understood on a day to day basis.

momsrus

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 10:23 am

tichellady wrote:

I have noticed on imamother that there is a tendency to assume that modern Orthodox Jews are more lenient in all areas of halakha and that the more " to the right " one is, the more strict one is with halakhic observance. I think that each community has its stengths and has areas where halakhic observance is particularly strong, including the modern orthodox community. If you have know idea what I mean Here are some examples. I'm curious to hear of more examples and am happy to discuss the strengths in other communities as well, but let's keep this positive

1. Tikkun olam
2. Shalom Bayis
3. Raising sons and daughters to be able to have a livelihood
4. Avoiding cruelty to animals
5. Talmud Torah for women
6. Welcoming attitude to all Jews

Do you mean more machmir as opposed to stuff MO are not machmir with? Or more machmir in these areas than RW orthodox?

tichellady

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 11:52 am

I'm thinking about what everyone said. I agree tikun olam was not a good example so I detract it . I still think Talmud Torah for girls/women is bein Adam laMakom and is NOT about trying to be like the boys/men but to develop a deep love for Torah, a rich understanding of the halakhic process and a connection to Hashem.

In the past when I have mentioned certain halakhic approaches on this site I have been told that they are not mainstream orthodox, and now it's interesting to hear other people say that they don't think they are unique to the modern orthodox community at all. This is good to hear!

I am finding this thread helpful, if you find it offensive please don't continue reading it. My intention is really not to offend anyone, but to unpack some ideas that I have had while on imamother.

leah233

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 12:11 pm

tichellady wrote:

One of the issues I see in our community is men coming late to shul and I think that the positive way of seeing that ( which I think is actually true) is that men are very involved in home life and spending time with kids in the morning, setting the table etc so families often come together to shul around 10, instead of the husbands leaving the wives with a house full of kids at 8:30. ( I'm not saying this is good or bad, I think there are good and bad parts to it, just like there are good and bad parts to having a community culture where men are expected to get to shul on time)

Can you give an example of where MO women are more machmir in Sholom Bayis?

Having your husband go late or stay home from shul to help you in the house certainly isn't a chumra on the wife's part.

essie14

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 3:46 pm

I find this strange. OP, I'm not sure if you are MO and trying to toot the horn of your community or if you are yeshivish and trying to rebut the "MO just means lax in halacha" viewpoint.

ANYONE can call themselves MO and choose to be lax or machmir in halacha.
ANYONE can choose to wear chassidish levush and appear "ultra-Orthodox" and choose to be lax or machmir in halacha.
There is no initiation to being MO and there is no one leading authority paskening for MO people.
I know many MO people who are super strict with minyan 3x a day, kovea ittim, etc. and many who never put on tefilin. They can all call themselves MO.