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The real truth about Sarah Shenirer & the start of BY
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martina




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 2:38 am
chestnut wrote:
You're right and she actually went with her family. I stand corrected.
The facts about a chassidishe single girl on her 20s - early 30s being allowed to go to a MO shul, listen to the speeches there, and even attend lectures at the university, still stand. Very "unorthodox" chassidishe girl, indeed.

During World War I, Schenirer and her family fled from Poland to Vienna.[5] While there, she became influenced by Rabbi Flesch,[2] a disciple of Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch, and Modern Orthodox Judaism.[6] His sermons emphasized the role of women throughout Jewish history, which inspired Schenirer.[2]

Schenirer occasionally attended lectures at the university, where she befriended young Jews who were in a campus program called Ruth, where she observed them lighting candles on the Sabbath, in violation of halakha. She perceived from this the need for better Jewish education.[3]


I dont know where you are quoting from but rav flesch was anything but MO. Maybe he leaned towards the teachings of rav s h hirsh but not mo, as it is understood in todays world. I knew his son who used to share about his father with me


Last edited by martina on Wed, Aug 30 2017, 3:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Slategray


 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 3:19 am
amother wrote:


I just read her article until the part where she speaks in quite a derogatory manner about chareidi people running for daas Torah before they do anything, opposed to, as she claims, what Sarah Schenirer did.
And I stopped reading.


Leslie Ginsparg Klein wrote:


It is important to stress that there is no evidence to suggest that Sarah Schenirer was trying to sidestep rabbis. In fact there is evidence to support that idea that Schenirer considered rabbinic support very important, especially when establishing schools in new locations. However, she simply did not speak to all the gedolim these narratives list besides the Belzer Rebbe, before starting Bais Yaakov. Nor is there any evidence to suggest that she thought it necessary at that time.

This historical disconnect has consequences for today. Advocates for change, particularly related to women, are often challenged with the criticism that they are abandoning the example of Sarah Schenirer, because these critics claim Schenirer refrained from any action until she had consulted with the Hafetz Hayyim and the other rabbinic leaders. The desire to seek the approval of multiple gedolim before suggesting or implementing even the smallest change or starting any kind of community organization or initiative is a valid approach. However, Sarah Schenirer is not representative of this approach. To claim Schenirer personifies this approach or to use her to criticize or undercut the efforts of those who are truly following her approach to innovation and positive change, is simply wrong. Instead, it effectively squelches new, positive calls for improvement and innovation.


I'm not seeing the derogatory (in red), is it because of the phrase "even the smallest?" - she accepts the approach.

I'm curious about the bolded. Has anyone on this forum heard that critisim, and with regards to what?
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 5:06 am
I don't get why this blogpost assumes a bracha and encouragement from the Belzer Rebbe was not enough. For, me, as a Lubavitcher, a bracha and encouragement from the lubavitcher Rebbe would be more then enough.

The later haskomos she got from other rabbanim were no doubt helpful in growing her movement but not needed to start her off on her project.
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 5:57 am
Raisin wrote:
I don't get why this blogpost assumes a bracha and encouragement from the Belzer Rebbe was not enough. For, me, as a Lubavitcher, a bracha and encouragement from the lubavitcher Rebbe would be more then enough.

The later haskomos she got from other rabbanim were no doubt helpful in growing her movement but not needed to start her off on her project.

She didn't even ask for the additional haskamos. Those familiar with her work, (I believe Dr. Deutchlander) asked for them and a public statement of support was made at the kenessia gedola. I believe that the Chofetz Chaim was in his 90s and made the unprecedented announcement asking for general support for her.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 6:12 am
Iymnok wrote:
She didn't even ask for the additional haskamos. Those familiar with her work, (I believe Dr. Deutchlander) asked for them and a public statement of support was made at the kenessia gedola. I believe that the Chofetz Chaim was in his 90s and made the unprecedented announcement asking for general support for her.


Exactly! They supported her because they realised how vital her work was. For Sarah Schneirer one bracha was enough. She wasn't trying a sell a sefer or a shabbos lamp.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 6:23 am
Anyone else find it ironic that the main yeshivish school system for girls was set up by a chassidic woman who was heavily influenced by Rabbi Hirsh?

We can all learn from each other.
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martina




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 6:26 am
Raisin wrote:
Anyone else find it ironic that the main yeshivish school system for girls was set up by a chassidic woman who was heavily influenced by Rabbi Hirsh?

We can all learn from each other.


Beautifully put
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amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 6:44 am
Raisin wrote:
Anyone else find it ironic that the main yeshivish school system for girls was set up by a chassidic woman who was heavily influenced by Rabbi Hirsh?

We can all learn from each other.


I agree we can all learn from each other, though as a descendant of Rav Hirsch, I jut want to point out that he was in no way MO himself. Certainly not as it is understood today. MO based certain practices on his teachings.
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MitzadSheini




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 6:48 am
Raisin wrote:
Anyone else find it ironic that the main yeshivish school system for girls was set up by a chassidic woman who was heavily influenced by Rabbi Hirsh?

We can all learn from each other.


Fantastic! Thanks for this.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 7:11 am
amother wrote:
So I just cannot read articles that say the opposite or ridicule it.

Did you ask your Rav/Dayan/Posek/Rebbetzin if you're allowed to read this site?
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iyar




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 8:16 am
Raisin wrote:
Anyone else find it ironic that the main yeshivish school system for girls was set up by a chassidic woman who was heavily influenced by Rabbi Hirsh?

We can all learn from each other.


I'm not sure I know what to make of this.
Have you read the writings Rav Shamshon Rephael Hirsch?
I don't pretend to be an expert on his great body of work but I am slightly familiar.

Some quotations from his work are very popular in certain circles. What many people forget is that the focus of RSR"H's work was fighting the budding reform movement in his time tooth and nail.

The early proponents of the reform movement didn't skip straight to chillul Shabbos and performing marriages between couples of the same gender. They proposed bringing Jewish practices up to date and into modernity with small subtle changes. RSR"H strongly opposed any minute change in observance from the way Halacha and Minhag had been established in previous generations. A lot of today's "yeshivish" leaders seem to be his true spiritual descendants. With his strict adherence to old fashioned practices and his rejection of modernization I wonder how popular his body of work would be with many of us imamothers.

It might be interesting for you to find what he actually wrote about Torah im Derech Eretz. People love to attribute this whole concept to RSR"H when in fact the way it's interpreted today has almost nothing to do with his teachings and weltanschaung.

Historical revisionism anyone?
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 9:42 am
Raisin wrote:
Anyone else find it ironic that the main yeshivish school system for girls was set up by a chassidic woman who was heavily influenced by Rabbi Hirsh?

We can all learn from each other.


Well, I'm not sure the BY system in Poland would be considered a yeshivish school system for girls. Many of it's students were in fact Chassidish - though there was a broad spectrum of types.

Lithuania had it's own Yavneh school network, which was not affiliated with the BY movement.


A read I found fascinating was Gutta - about Mrs. Gutta Shternbuch. She describes her years of BY - she actually took time acclimating to the Chassidish environment there, coming from a university education.
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martina




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 9:45 am
Chayalle wrote:


A read I found fascinating was Gutta - about Mrs. Gutta Shternbuch. She describes her years of BY - she actually took time acclimating to the Chassidish environment there, coming from a university education.


True, same goes for Rebbetzin Judith Grunfeld. And it was obviously a topic then, as I once saw an inscription from Saarah Schenirerśto reb. grunfeld in a sefer she gave her about blessings her to go in way of chassidus or something like that (I dont remmeber exact quote)
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CDL




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 9:54 am
iyar wrote:
I'm not sure I know what to make of this.
Have you read the writings Rav Shamshon Rephael Hirsch?
I don't pretend to be an expert on his great body of work but I am slightly familiar.

Some quotations from his work are very popular in certain circles. What many people forget is that the focus of RSR"H's work was fighting the budding reform movement in his time tooth and nail.

The early proponents of the reform movement didn't skip straight to chillul Shabbos and performing marriages between couples of the same gender. They proposed bringing Jewish practices up to date and into modernity with small subtle changes. RSR"H strongly opposed any minute change in observance from the way Halacha and Minhag had been established in previous generations. A lot of today's "yeshivish" leaders seem to be his true spiritual descendants. With his strict adherence to old fashioned practices and his rejection of modernization I wonder how popular his body of work would be with many of us imamothers.

It might be interesting for you to find what he actually wrote about Torah im Derech Eretz. People love to attribute this whole concept to RSR"H when in fact the way it's interpreted today has almost nothing to do with his teachings and weltanschaung.

Historical revisionism anyone?


There is a difference between Torah u'madah and Torah im Derech eretz. They (the two philosophies) don't claim to be the same thing. Also, the chareidi world DOES have an issue with Torah im derech eretz. We should differentiate between American yeshivish and chareidi. In general they are different from each other, specifically in this area.
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amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 10:15 am
CDL wrote:
There is a difference between Torah u'madah and Torah im Derech eretz. They (the two philosophies) don't claim to be the same thing.


There is a difference.
But, many people (I've heard it quoted several times on this site) mistakenly label Rav Hirsch's path as MO when it was no connection to it whatsoever.
One of the posters above even quoted from an article that labelled one of his disciples at the time as an MO Rabbi. This couldn't be further from the truth. Iyar is right - there might be historical revisionism going on, but it's definitely being done in this direction too.
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CDL




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 10:24 am
amother wrote:
There is a difference.
But, many people (I've heard it quoted several times on this site) mistakenly label Rav Hirsch's path as MO when it was no connection to it whatsoever.
One of the posters above even quoted from an article that labelled one of his disciples at the time as an MO Rabbi. This couldn't be further from the truth. Iyar is right - there might be historical revolutionism going - but, it's definitely being pulled in the other direction too.


Anyone know why R' S. R. Hirsch's mehalach ha Chaim wasn't perpetuated? While it is quoted a lot, It doesn't seem to be very popular in practice. And it is somewhat of a bridge between MO and yeshivish and chareidi, so it would be logical to me if it was a category of its own, for those who fall in between.
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amother
Brown


 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 12:55 pm
His derech was continued - In the Yekkishe communities there is a strong emphasis on the mesora of Torah im Derech Eretz. In some ways it may look similar to Torah Umada in that there is a strong value on a profession/business and not being hesitant to interface with the 'outside' world, but that is pretty much where the similarity ends.

(Oh, and also, Washington Heights is the home of the original(?) nuclear Yekkishe community in the US, and also many Sterns and YU students)
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 1:10 pm
CDL wrote:
Anyone know why R' S. R. Hirsch's mehalach ha Chaim wasn't perpetuated? While it is quoted a lot, It doesn't seem to be very popular in practice. And it is somewhat of a bridge between MO and yeshivish and chareidi, so it would be logical to me if it was a category of its own, for those who fall in between.


It's a numbers game. The Yekkish frum community was relatively small. I have yekkish relatives (who definitely follow his derech) but their kids seem to have gone in all sorts of different directions.

But as we can see Rabbi Hirsh in fact had a strong influence on other communities too.

I think outside of Israel there are many people who follow Rabbi Hirsh's philosophy. But once you go to Israel you have to align yourself as DL or chareidi...
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 1:12 pm
Chayalle wrote:
Well, I'm not sure the BY system in Poland would be considered a yeshivish school system for girls. Many of it's students were in fact Chassidish - though there was a broad spectrum of types.

Lithuania had it's own Yavneh school network, which was not affiliated with the BY movement.


A read I found fascinating was Gutta - about Mrs. Gutta Shternbuch. She describes her years of BY - she actually took time acclimating to the Chassidish environment there, coming from a university education.


Yes, I'm talking about the modern version of BY. Growing up in London, there was lots of different chassidic girls school, (Belz, satmar, lubavitch, etc) and then the litvish girls all went to BY.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 1:18 pm
iyar wrote:
I'm not sure I know what to make of this.
Have you read the writings Rav Shamshon Rephael Hirsch?
I don't pretend to be an expert on his great body of work but I am slightly familiar.

Some quotations from his work are very popular in certain circles. What many people forget is that the focus of RSR"H's work was fighting the budding reform movement in his time tooth and nail.

The early proponents of the reform movement didn't skip straight to chillul Shabbos and performing marriages between couples of the same gender. They proposed bringing Jewish practices up to date and into modernity with small subtle changes. RSR"H strongly opposed any minute change in observance from the way Halacha and Minhag had been established in previous generations. A lot of today's "yeshivish" leaders seem to be his true spiritual descendants. With his strict adherence to old fashioned practices and his rejection of modernization I wonder how popular his body of work would be with many of us imamothers.

It might be interesting for you to find what he actually wrote about Torah im Derech Eretz. People love to attribute this whole concept to RSR"H when in fact the way it's interpreted today has almost nothing to do with his teachings and weltanschaung.

Historical revisionism anyone?


I'm pretty sure learning in High school that reform at one point wanted to make shabbos on sunday. They were pretty far out in rejecting halacha. Of course they didn't support gay marriage, no one did then!!

from wiki:

Quote:
...On 17 July 1810, he dedicated a synagogue in Seesen that employed an organ and a choir during prayer and introduced some German liturgy. This day is celebrated by Reform Judaism worldwide as its foundation date.


I'm not claiming Rabbi Hirsh is Modern Orthodox, if that is what you are insinuating. As I said, I have yekkish relatives, and they are not M.O. But they are certainly not chareidi.
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