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The real truth about Sarah Shenirer & the start of BY
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chestnut




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 1:19 pm
CDL wrote:
There is a difference between Torah u'madah and Torah im Derech eretz. They (the two philosophies) don't claim to be the same thing. Also, the chareidi world DOES have an issue with Torah im derech eretz. We should differentiate between American yeshivish and chareidi. In general they are different from each other, specifically in this area.


What's the difference between these two?
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amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 3:46 pm
Raisin wrote:
I'm not claiming Rabbi Hirsh is Modern Orthodox, if that is what you are insinuating. As I said, I have yekkish relatives, and they are not M.O. But they are certainly not chareidi.


I'm yekkish and I'm yeshivish. So are all my cousins. Yekkish people aren't all one type.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 3:54 pm
chestnut wrote:
What's the difference between these two?


The way I heard it, from someone who was an expert on The Nineteen Letters in the original is up for debate, but this is how I learned it: It's all in the prepositions. TIDE is "im", "with". TuM is "oo", "and."
So in TIDE, the Torah is dominant and the derech eretz is with it, subservient to and enhancing our understanding. In TuM, there is a greater synergy of Torah and other knowledge.
This is not judging one over the other, shivim panim l'Torah.
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CDL




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 4:55 pm
My understanding (not comprehensive at all): Torah umada recognizes a value in secular knowledge independent of its relation to Torah. On the other hand, torah Im derech eretz recognizes the value of secular knowledge only to the extent that it enhances Torah and the way we practice.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 5:00 pm
amother wrote:
I'm yekkish and I'm yeshivish. So are all my cousins. Yekkish people aren't all one type.


Nor or litvish people all yeshivish. Yet people use litvish to refer to a certain derech, and Yekkish another.

That is precisely my point - that many yekkes have joined other, larger groups. I'm pretty sure there was no yeshivish community in Frankfurt-am-main.
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amother
Coffee


 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 9:39 pm
watergirl wrote:
The world, especially the frum womens world does indeed need to he saved. Every time I see a new chumra turn into an accepted norm (with a fictitious claim that this is how it always was!) I wonder how this is happening.

I can just imagine if Sarah Shenirer never existed and never created BY, how it would never happen today.


you're right, it (assuming you mean the "chumros" you're mentioning) would never happen today if Sarah Shenirer hadn't created BY and thus, Baruch Hashem, saved the Jewish orthodox/frum female population from slowly deteriorating further in Yiddishkeit and eventual possible assimilation, b/c possibly these girls and future wouldn't be shomer Torah u'mitzvos.

I shudder to think how those girls and thus future Jewish generations unto now would look like, if Hashem hadn't Sent Sarah Shenirer to do her holy work in saving Jewish girls' neshamos.

I'm interested in what you mean by "a new chumra turn into an accepted norm?"

Kindly post specific examples.

ty
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amother
Coffee


 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 9:46 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
The way I heard it, from someone who was an expert on The Nineteen Letters in the original is up for debate, but this is how I learned it: It's all in the prepositions. TIDE is "im", "with". TuM is "oo", "and."
So in TIDE, the Torah is dominant and the derech eretz is with it, subservient to and enhancing our understanding. In TuM, there is a greater synergy of Torah and other knowledge.
This is not judging one over the other, shivim panim l'Torah.


"PinkFridge," I always enjoy and am very interested in reading your posts.

But, I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about here and what the words you use, mean.

Kindly explain -

ty.
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chestnut




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 9:57 pm
Torah im derech eretz and Torah u'madah
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amother
Coffee


 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 9:57 pm
leah233 wrote:
For my last post on this thread I'll just say that Sorah Schenirer herself did not consider it to be "not much". From her dairy quoted in the original article:

When I arrived in Marienbad, I and my brother went immediately to the Belzer Rav. My brother, who was a ben bayis there, wrote in his kvittel: “She wants to educate Jewish daughters in the Jewish derech,” and I heard the answer from the tzaddik’s holy mouth myself: Bracha v’hatzlacha. The words were like the most expensive balsam oil, instilling fresh courage in my limbs. The blessing from the great tzaddik gave me the best hope that my strivings would be fulfilled.


Thank you for posting this part of Sarah Shenirer's diary.
I don't feel from the words written that Sarah Shenirer felt the holy Belzer Rebbe's zt'l bracha of "Bracha v'hatzlacha'' to be a few thrown out words.

Chas v'Shalom for us to demean and make less of the holy Belzer Rebbe's words.

I actually sense excitement and strong determination on Sarah Shenirer's part after getting the bracha from the holy Rebbe.

I'd love to read her diary. Can s/o kindly tell me its title, and if it is sold in the bookstores, like "Shanky's" in Jerusalem?

TIA. Smile
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amother
Coffee


 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 10:08 pm
amother wrote:
Huh? Chassidish girls wouldn't be allowed to escape during a war?


escaping during the war to save one's life, is totally different than what "chestnut" wrote, to which you're commenting.
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amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 10:14 pm
amother wrote:
escaping during the war to save one's life, is totally different than what "chestnut" wrote, to which you're commenting.


Huh?

She wrote that a chassidish girl wouldn't be able to just go travelling to a foreign country on her own.

The true facts are that she escaped with her family there during the First World War.
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amother
Coffee


 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 10:36 pm
Raisin wrote:
Anyone else find it ironic that the main yeshivish school system for girls was set up by a chassidic woman who was heavily influenced by Rabbi Hirsh?

We can all learn from each other.


Really really beautiful and powerful point.
Thank you.

and it shows us imamothers, that the Torah way of life of every member here on this beautiful forum, is to be respected, no matter if it is more religious, less religious, the main thing that it is following the absolute Torah guidelines and halachos.

No reason to bully and bash others whose Torah life is different or perhaps more religious.

I'll take the chassidim as my point here - they seem to be the least accepted and respected community here on imamother.

I'm appalled at the bashing and ridiculing and accusations of thievery and fraud amongst the
chassidim, that is posted on imamother.

"Don't follow the herd" with your opinions of Yidden in other Torah communities and Torah communities different than yours.
Think for yourself, do full research on other Torah ways of life, before voicing your opinion.

IMVHO
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amother
Coffee


 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 10:52 pm
amother wrote:
I agree we can all learn from each other, though as a descendant of Rav Hirsch, I jut want to point out that he was in no way MO himself. Certainly not as it is understood today. MO based certain practices on his teachings.


I have the Tehillim with Rabbi S. R. Hirsch' translation, explanations and commentaries. It is one of the most beautiful Sefer that I own, and I absolutely TREASURE it.

I actually take it with me whenever I go out, and read it whenever I can. It is one of the most vivid, genuine and heart-tugging versions of translated Tehillims, and so vividly potrays Dovid haMelech's life and challenges, and how he turned to Hashem during every challenge and found consolation only from doing that - turning to Hashem.

And I find consolation during my life challenges whenever I just open up this Tehillim, even at random, and start reading.

Zechuso yogen aleinu v'al kol Yisrael.
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amother
Coffee


 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 10:59 pm
CDL wrote:
There is a difference between Torah u'madah and Torah im Derech eretz. They (the two philosophies) don't claim to be the same thing. Also, the chareidi world DOES have an issue with Torah im derech eretz. We should differentiate between American yeshivish and chareidi. In general they are different from each other, specifically in this area.


What is Torah u'madah?

ty
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amother
Coffee


 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 11:02 pm
amother wrote:
Huh?

She wrote that a chassidish girl wouldn't be able to just go travelling to a foreign country on her own.

The true facts are that she escaped with her family there during the First World War.


Thank you for telling me the true facts.
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amother
Coffee


 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 11:08 pm
amother wrote:
I never met anyone who thinks Moshe Rabbainu wore a shtreimel. I'm nominally chasidish.


and I never knew that wearing a shtreimel is a chumrah.
I know it is a minhag amongst chassidim and amongst Litvish Yerushalmi. e.g. HaGaon HaRav Eliyashiv ztz'l wore a shtreimel.
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amother
Slategray


 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 11:12 pm
amother wrote:
What is Torah u'madah?

ty


Have you tried to google it?

ty.
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amother
Coffee


 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 11:21 pm
amother wrote:
Have you tried to google it?

ty.


Thank you for your suggestion.

Googling is a way of getting info, but I'm always hesitant to google about Torah ways and matters, b/c I don't know the authenticity and hashkafos of the usually numerous places listed from where to get one's info.

I also know for a fact that many missionary movements post on Google wearing the "costume" of authentic Jews. r'l.
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amother
Coffee


 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 11:23 pm
chestnut wrote:
Torah im derech eretz and Torah u'madah


Thank you for taking the time to explain.
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amother
Coffee


 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 11:26 pm
CDL wrote:
My understanding (not comprehensive at all): Torah umada recognizes a value in secular knowledge independent of its relation to Torah. On the other hand, torah Im derech eretz recognizes the value of secular knowledge only to the extent that it enhances Torah and the way we practice.


Thank you sincerely for taking the time to explain with such clarity.
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