are we required to judge Hashem favorably?

pause

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 12:12 am

amother wrote:

No don't get me wrong. I get this bit.

But going from that to Hashem is ultimately kind? So if you judge Hashem fairly vis what He did was fair, how can you also judge the wrongdoer fairly?

I'm left with bad stuff happened to them because they were bad.

I also have "bad stuff happened to me because I am bad, coz I know I'm bad. That's easier somehow.

He sent you what you needed, what your neshama needed. What was good for you. In some way. Though we often don't see how or why it was good. That's where the prayer bit comes in: Ask Him for help to see the good, but often we won't. Because we're not Omniscient like He is. We don't have the vision from years back and years into the future to know why this stuff that seems to me bad happened to me, but I believe that it's ultimately for my good, for my benefit.

We ask Hashem to be mish'alos libeinu l'tovah (fulfill our hearts' desires for the good). L'tovah means that we ask Hashem to grant us our desires only if it's l'tovah for our good. IOW, we might think we want/need something and that's good for us, but only He knows what's really good for us. So He should only give it to us if it's for our ultimate good.

PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 8:11 am

pause wrote:

We are taught to be mevarech Hashem al ha'ra k'shem shemevarech al hatov (bless Him on the bad like we bless Him on the good). From this we see that it is human nature to thank G-d for the good He does, and that acknowledging the good comes more easily and more naturally than the bad.

We don't have the capacity to properly be mavarech for the ra, though it is something to aspire to.

Because I'm with you. Not that I'm against tichellady: many of her posts are likeable and I'm sure she is too, but I will differ with her on this. Let me start by saying that I don't judge anyone, I can fully understand both sides, but here's why it wouldn't work for me: Because it would be disconnecting me from Hashem, and life is about connection, to other people, to ourselves, and Hashem.

What would I do? Keep on thanking Hashem for the good. And when it comes to the difficult, mine or someone else's, I'll say, I don't understand You. I want to. Please help me. I'm going to continue to say that You are rachamav al kol maasav, Rofeh l'shvurei lev umechabesh l'atzvosam, Rofeh chol basar umafli laasos, et al, even when I don't see it. Help me see it and feel it.

That tapestry meme: Recently I was sitting next to someone who was knitting a lovely afghan. She's very gifted. The back looked beautiful and as far as I could see, she could use either side. Maybe, had I looked more closely I would have seen a knot here or there, but I couldn't see it. When we look at the back of the tapestry that is this world, because of course, all we can see is Hashem's back, we see knots, ripped stiches, and sometimes, a pretty royal mess. I suspect that if Moshe Rabbeinu were looking at the back of the tapestry he would still see some seeming imperfections (he asked questions too), but he would see a lot less imperfection and more deliberate, intelligent design, if I may use those words.

It is not callous to others to say that we are looking with blinders on. We have to daven that Hashem remove our spiritual cataracts.

PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 8:19 am

Seas wrote:

Obviously the way Hashem's will manifests itself often appears to us to be 'bad'. That is what the posuk means בורא רע, that even the seemingly bad things that happen are also from Hashem, and that there aren't numerous forces in power.

We cannot always see the chesed Hashem and it's not always clear to us why Hashem did what He did. Though we must never question Hashem.

However, to think that a human being has greater capacity for compassion than Hashem - the One who actually created compassion and instilled it into humans - is stupidity at best.

Hashem is the inventor and source of compassion, and is the ultimate בעל הרחמים. Humans cannot and will not ever come close to even comprehending Hashem's actions, let alone have the ability to judge them.

We have no right to judge Hashem whether it's lkaf zechus or not (even talking about judging Hashem is gross chutzpah). He does as He wills, and there is no one who can tell Him what to do and how to act.

It behooves us to fully submit to the will of our Master and Creator, without ever deigning to second guess Him.

We are very much on the same page as far as Hashem's rachamim and not being able to comprehend it even while steadfastly holding on to our belief in it.

And yes, life is about submission. This season is about submission, making Hashem our King and submitting to His will and trying our best to act according to His will and we know that's for our ultimate good.

But even Esther said, "Keli, lama azavtani." No edition of Tehillim will translate those words with "sic" afterwards. It is normal to feel that. It is healthy, if not imperative for our mental health, to acknowledge normal feelings. The question is, what do we them? Do we berate ourselves for our lapse and then bury the feelings or do we say, "But, Hashem, I'm going to stay with You and daven that You give me strength to overcome and grow"?

What is the line...is it in the yamim noraim davening...I run away from You to You?

PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 8:22 am

amother wrote:

Thanks for all the replying.

This is op

You have given me a lot to think about.

My problem is that when I see an in- justice committed by a person (as opposed to an "Act of God" like an earthquake or something) I become almost paralizationed with how unfair it is. Why did God allow it? Not s Tue if I should be saying to myself - he us getting what he deserved?

But then I think- did I also only get what I deserved? But it's more about being so sad and angry for the other person that I can't help them. So I was thinking if I could tell myself I'm doing an aveira thinking like this, rather I should dklz H that it is really fair I just can't see it.

Hearing that this too it's arrogant makes me v sad.

I was going to write more but maybe tomorrow.

Sounds like you have survivor's guilt.
ETA re your last post on p. 2 which pause quotes: it goes back to tzaddik v'ra lo.

amother

Slategray

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 8:39 am

PinkFridge wrote:

[u]

I always appreciate your thoughts PinkFridge even though I don't always agree with you. The issue I have with your comment is that if we are being honest with ourselves, the whole aspect of hashem being fully, 100% compassionate, and all loving, makes no sense to us mortals. You say we should ask hashem to "help us see and feel it". What does that really mean? There is no way to reconcile tragedy with hashem being fully compassionate other then to say we don't understand hashem. The converstaion ALWAYS ends there. It's difficult to internalize and fully believe something that is a direct contradiction to the common sense hashem gave us. So while I also go thru the motions and say that hashem is fully compassionate, it's somewhat hollow to me because according to the logic hashem gave me (and every other person) I see otherwise. In order for something to have value, it has to make sense and be understood. If the Torah said that 1+1=3, you would have to say that you believe it 100% simply because the torah says it. However, somewhere deep inside, you would wonder and question the fact that your human logic tells you otherwise. It's the same thing with hashem. We are told he is fully compassionate but our human logic shows us otherwise. It's confusing for me.

pause

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 8:50 am

I don't think it's logically hard to understand that because you're only seeing one piece of the puzzle, you cannot understand the compassion. It's the emotional part that's difficult.

When the malachim asked Hashem Zu Torah v'zu sechara?! (Is this the reward for Torah?!) when R' Akiva's body was being raked with hot iron, Hashem said if you're not quiet right now, I will revert the world back to tohu v'vohu. One explanation I once heard is that Hashem was telling them, it's not possible for you to understand this; in order for me to explain this to you, I'd need to undo the whole world and start from before b'reishis so that you can understand this.

Others have said, I don't want to serve a G-d that I understand. IOW, if you, with your limited 120-year vision and limited mortal brain would understand the ways of G-d, then G-d would be very limited. Or, you would BE G-d. It's just not possible for us to understand.

But on an individual level, it's ok to ask Him help you see the good in any bad situation that happens.

marina

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 11:58 am

Seas wrote:

I absolutely believe that Hashem is the ultimate exemplification of compassion and good. After all He created compassion and good and He is the source of it.

To say otherwise is stupidity at best, and at worst apikorsus.

Do I understand His ways?

Duh, I'm mortal and He's God, so obviously not. But I absolutely believe.

Keil emunah ve'ein avel tzaddik veyashar hu.

I don't understand why we accept this so blithely. Why would a God who doesn't bother explaining himself expect me to believe and follow his directives? Would we ever accept that from anyone else- a boss, a king, a parent?

Your parent abuses you but directs you to honor him and you insist that it is stupidity to consider your parent anything but the ultimate exemplification of compassion and good. Just because you consider yourself too simpleminded to understand your parent.

And this line " After all He created compassion and good and He is the source of it," makes no sense either. He also created evil and death and he is in fact the source of that also.

marina

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 12:02 pm

Seas wrote:

The seemingly bad things are, in fact, from Hashem. Because, unlike in other religions, there is no other deity or creator that Judaism believes in. We have no devil or other evil counterpart to God. Hashem is the inventor not only of compassion, but also of harm.

Quote:

there is no one who can tell Him what to do and how to act.

Not only do we tell God how to act *every single time* we pray for something, but the chumash is full of stories of pple telling God what to do, from Avraham and S'dom to Moshe's Mocheini na m'sifrecho.

marina

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 12:07 pm

pause wrote:

I don't know why you and others are making prayer into something it is not. We DO NOT ask God for help in seeing the good or to grant out desires if it is for our good.

What are you talking about?

There's a family here, you've all heard of them, they were in a terrible accident and several children were in critical condition, one little girl was on the verge of death.

NO ONE prayed for help in seeing the good. NO ONE prayed for her to live if it was for her good and only Hashem knows if living is really good for her. Everyone prayed for her to live and be healthy.

Literally, what are you talking about?

PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 12:32 pm

marina wrote:

Maybe you're right if it's about the Great Bicycle Race. Then you ask to win if it is good for you.

But not if your child is in the ICU. Then you tell Hashem what to do in a very different way.

Of course we do. And it would be horribly cruel to do it with any riders, such as "if it's good for him/her." But when things don't go according to our script, we know - because we have committed to this, and we study it, and we daven for understanding - that there is some ultimate good that we can hope to connect to.

There is a mitzvah to love Hashem. Of all the six constant mitzvos, this is the hardest. It is hard to love Someone intangible. And as you all say, on some level it seems masochistic. But I believe that level is a superficial understanding of G-d. Now one of the mitzvos is to believe in Hashem's unity, another is not to worship other gods which means to ascribe the ability to affect anything to anyone other than Hashem. So when we daven, we are saying, You are the only One who can do what I think I need. And nothing is too mundane to daven for. Including help in serving Hashem better. If I'm going to try to love Hashem, I need the tools which means understanding.

The words of Ahava raba, "v'sein bilibainu l'havin ul'haskil," come to mind. Yes, it's referring to understanding Torah. But Rav Yechezkel Abramsky, zt"l, said, "During Tefillah, one is permitted and even encouraged, to add personal kavanos to the words, including those that don't conform to the exact meaning of the text." (I'm quoting from a brief pamphlet on part of davening I was given once. Very reliable source IMO.) In keeping with that, I can ask for greater understanding and appreciation of Hashem's kindness if I need that to make me appreciate the great gift of His Torah. I don't even consider that a stretch.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Thu, Aug 31 2017, 12:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

pause

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 1:42 pm

amother wrote:

You're taking the point out of context. When a 35 year old girl needs a shidduch, do we daven, "please hashem send her a shidduch, or do we say "please hashem send her a shidduch if it's good for her"? The same applies to anything else we daven for. When someone is ill we simply daven for them to get better. We don't add anything about if it's your will or if it's for the best.

So what?

We ask for what we perceive as good, what we want. And praying to Him is what Hashem wants too. We should have that connection to Him and ask Him for what we want. He is after all the source of it all. However, Hashem will do what He sees as good. Whether it is to fulfill one's prayers, to say "no", or to say "not yet"...

pause

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 1:45 pm

marina wrote:

It was a terrible tragedy. No one is denying that even one iota. Yet, you think that there's something wrong with asking Hashem to show us the good even in this situation? To focus on the positive? To help us understand why this happened?