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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
It seems more and more are going OTD
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amother
Tan


 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 11:45 pm
I don't have any actual proof or numbers but I worry about my own kids, for sure. I read how kids are being turned off by learning and like many adults they go through the motions to keep up with appearances but the feeling isn't there. Secular influences are too great. My own DS became turned off when he began to recognize contradictions or inconsistencies being taught in his previous day school. BH, he is not OTD but he is no longer going to that school! I think, what if my kids went OTD? What if they were still good, kind people, why would I be so upset? And yet, I would very much be upset. On the other hand, I am the type to recognize that there are all kinds of Jews and everyone believes what they believe and I'm okay with that as long as someone doesn't try to force their own derech on me.

So, are their real statistics out there? Are there more and more kids going OTD than ever before?
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amother
Powderblue


 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 11:50 pm
No, a hundred years ago in Europe, the attrition rate was something like 80 per cent. It might feel to you that there's a high rate now, but that's because you're in the middle of things.
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mirror




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 11:52 pm
I hear that it's actually not so much greater than in previous generations. Right before the Nazis took over, most of European Jewry were secular Jews. I once saw a photography book of European Jews before the war. I remember seeing one picture with lots of men and women standing in water. The caption read, "Saturday at the Reine."
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amother
Jade


 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 11:57 pm
I doubt I would really care. I just want my children to be happy healthy productive people. Religion is a personal choice. I wouldn't want them to keep something they don't truly want.

What would bother me is if they were bitter and angry and put down my lifestyle in the process. Also it would upset my husband and parents very much which would be unfortunate.
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amother
Puce


 

Post Wed, Aug 30 2017, 11:57 pm
I think most frum people would be upset if a child went OTD. Its not enough to be a nice person, you have to keep the Torah also. Not everything in the Torah is about being nice and that isn't our only goal

As for the rates its definitely true that more children are going OTD, and the reasons are endless. If we want to help the situation we should all work on ourselves, and hope we have a positive influence on our surroundings
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amother
Amber


 

Post Thu, Aug 31 2017, 12:09 am
amother wrote:
I am the type to recognize that there are all kinds of Jews and everyone believes what they believe and I'm okay with that as long as someone doesn't try to force their own derech on me.


if everyone has their own derech - how can anyone be off the derech?
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amother
Powderblue


 

Post Thu, Aug 31 2017, 12:52 am
amother wrote:

As for the rates its definitely true that more children are going OTD, and the reasons are endless. If we want to help the situation we should all work on ourselves, and hope we have a positive influence on our surroundings


How do you know that more children are going OTD?
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amother
Aquamarine


 

Post Thu, Aug 31 2017, 1:02 am
I read these kids are not turned off they were never turned on. OTDs think by throwing away yiddishkeit they will be happier. If we're accepting and caring parents and teachers they won't feel such a need to look elsewhere. There is allot of pain and shame having an otd child
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MyTimeNow




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 31 2017, 1:24 am
amother wrote:
I read these kids are not turned off they were never turned on. OTDs think by throwing away yiddishkeit they will be happier. If we're accepting and caring parents and teachers they won't feel such a need to look elsewhere. There is allot of pain and shame having an otd child


Please be very sensitive with this discussion.
There are good women here suffering through this parsha.
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salt




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 31 2017, 1:39 am
Let's look on the up side and at the big picture. In this generation there is a huge teshuva movement as well. People whose families have not been religious for several generations are coming back.
There is s thirst for spirituality. Hundreds of new yeshiva's opening up for all sorts of people.
Jews who hardly knew that they were Jews are searching for their roots.

If my child were to decide that a Torah lifestyle is not for him, I'm not sure this would give me much comfort, but I just thought I'd mention it.
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grace413




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 31 2017, 1:50 am
There are as many reasons for going OTD as there are people doing it.

Rule Number one for parents of OTD kids: It is not your fault. (99% of the time). You did your best to raise your kids with your values; some of it didn't take. They have their own brains and their own thoughts.

And that's why we are upset when our kids go OTD; partially because our kids have rejected our values and our way of life. Guess what? Many parents of BTs are also upset because their kids have rejected their way if life. Yes, we can say but Hashem and Torah etc. I believe Hashem also loves his OTD children.
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amother
Beige


 

Post Thu, Aug 31 2017, 6:47 am
Having an OTD child is extremely painful even if they are good people.
It's not about not loving them. It's about failure to transmit the mesora that you were supposed to pass on. Maybe not exactly as you live it, but Shabbos and kashrus and relationships are a framework. My family chain from Sinai to Moshiach is damaged.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 31 2017, 6:55 am
amother wrote:
No, a hundred years ago in Europe, the attrition rate was something like 80 per cent. It might feel to you that there's a high rate now, but that's because you're in the middle of things.


That.
And that fantastic BTs and conversion current? Probably like never before.
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amother
Apricot


 

Post Thu, Aug 31 2017, 7:07 am
My son is 16 he is not OTD, however I'm afraid once he is out of high school I don't know what will be. He stopped going to shul on shabbas. On few acasions he said what's the point " or "I don't care " , curses sometimes too. Rabbi tells me it's teenagers, he will grow out of it. I'm afraid what if he doesn't Sad
Hashem please help us all!!!
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amother
Amethyst


 

Post Thu, Aug 31 2017, 7:11 am
Being in chinuch I used to feel it was the fault in some way of a parent or chvsh an abuser. However, look around...incredible parents have failed and miserable homes produced great children. I truly believe it's the spiritual cancer noone can be blamed for and we must daven and daven for best results...
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chayamiriam




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 31 2017, 8:00 am
I am a little offended by the statement that mirror made about most of Europes Jews were off the derech and pointed out one picture that she saw. So not true most of The Jews in Europe before world war 2 were fine frum ehrlich Jews, those were most of our grandparents!!! All of chasidic Jews are trying to copy the lifestyle of those Jews. Please be careful of what you write someone might really believe it!
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amother
Powderblue


 

Post Thu, Aug 31 2017, 8:23 am
chayamiriam wrote:
I am a little offended by the statement that mirror made about most of Europes Jews were off the derech and pointed out one picture that she saw. So not true most of The Jews in Europe before world war 2 were fine frum ehrlich Jews, those were most of our grandparents!!! All of chasidic Jews are trying to copy the lifestyle of those Jews. Please be careful of what you write someone might really believe it!


I'm sorry that someone fed you this bogus history. Yes, there were many fine religious Jews in Europe before World War 2, but the vast majority were on their way out of religious life.

Many turned to communism and socialism, some were attracted to non-religious Zionist movements, some just assimilated for a chance to move up the economic ladder. And it could be that more would have left, were it not for the antisemitism that held them back. Try reading a history of Jews in Europe that isn't put out by a frum publisher.

My grandparents were chassidim in Europe. Newsflash - youngsters from Sighet and Vishnitz were leaving religion in droves. (There were others, but for these, I can tell you I have eyewitness accounts.) All the immigrants to America who threw their tefillin overboard at Ellis Island grew in holy Europe. The founders of the Shomer Hatzair movement came from Jewish homes in Europe.

That's the sad truth. The good news is that we are doing far better than ever before. There's no reason to distort the past.
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chestnut




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 31 2017, 8:42 am
Isn't there a video of chassidishe kids singing hatikva before ww2?
ETA https://youtu.be/sujUvQtmxyk Munkazc, early 30s (boys and girls sing together omg! Show me a chareidi school now where it'll happen, even at this age)
Chaya miriam, you gotta realize that the grandparents of now frum families were probably a minority of the total prewar European Jewish population
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amother
Powderblue


 

Post Thu, Aug 31 2017, 9:01 am
chestnut wrote:
Isn't there a video of chassidishe kids singing hatikva before ww2?
ETA https://youtu.be/sujUvQtmxyk Munkazc, early 30s (boys and girls sing together omg! Show me a chareidi school now where it'll happen, even at this age)
Chaya miriam, you gotta realize that the grandparents of now frum families were probably a minority of the total prewar European Jewish population


It would prove my point, but actually, I don't think the kids there were chassidish. I think the person was filming in Muncacz and filmed both chassidim and a secular Zionist gathering. The thing is that both groups existed at the same time, and the religious group was smaller.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 31 2017, 9:04 am
OP, there are a few things here. You said your child saw contradictions. What do you mean? Do you mean hypocrisy in action, or asking questions that couldn't be answered or weren't answered well? Are there people in his school now who aren't afraid of questions and can give answers that he'll find work for him?

OTD is a big tent. Yes, we see a lot of kids who've been through trauma, or who haven't gotten what they need to succeed academically (on their level) who go off and sadly, a lot of these kids find validation in circle that just bring them down. No school, no job but drugs, etc. And there is so much pain there. I often have these kids in mind when I say "matir assurim." And there are parents who have done everything, or so much right. It happens. If you are afraid of this, do your best to facilitate your kids' success. Many schools now have programming for staff and parents and community about abuse potential. Make yourselves the parents your children will know they can always turn to. Daven. This is the reasonable hishtadlus you can do.

There are also kids who on an intellectual level don't find what they need. It could be due to poor teachers, the ones that berate them for asking questions, or who aren't equipped to answer. It's one thing if children find themselves comfortable in a different community, with a different approach, but that's till in the tent of authentic Yiddishkeit. When kids leave though, that's very painful. I know parents like this. And I also endorse and salute them for the menschen they've raised, who are living wholesome lives - school, career, etc. Of course we all hope that they find their way back but there is a lot to feel, IMO, rightfully good about.
The kids can still respect and admire their parents, and have a meaningful relationship with them.

Obviously, all this is not what we daven for. But at some point, we have to do what can, and then let go and let G-d, as the saying goes. Hatzlacha!
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