what to tell my kids about jews dressing more immodest

amother

Amber

Sun, Sep 17 2017, 9:39 am

amother wrote:

And to clarify these relatives wear shirts very low and very short skirts in addition to not covering hair. No rav would say it is allowed unless a fake rav""

Im trying to explain somehow that there is a concept of jews who do things differently --she must know that the right thing is how we dress not them but they are good people too. This is hard for me to explain because I dont want to put them down but at the same time. My daughter needs to know that there are laws about tznius we must follow.

In addition, my other kids will probably also be curious bc they are starting to notice things and when I tell them that we do certain things bc we are jewish, it will confuse them when they see others jewish not doing it.

Im not talking about things where different ravs say different things. Those came up already ex. Different hechsharim and I already explained to my kids we hold differently and their rav says different....but these relatives are not following halacha like not covering hair. .....I dont know a rabbi who says you dont have to cover hair at all.....

If anyone does kiruv and has unobservant people or very modern relatives over for shabbos do your kids wonder why they are not "doing what jews are supposed to do"???? What do you tell them???

In general. I have a lot of problems answering my kids questions bc they are young but think a lot about what I say and I dont want to say the wrong thing which will affect how they will grow up and form their own views...I want them to form the correct view

Where I live, all the Shuls are next to each other, and it's very obvious that there is a different way of dress for each. YES, the rav of the Modern Orthodox shul allows women not to cover their hair. He is a legit rav, with legit semicha. Do I agree with this? No. But it's not my business. And I try to teach my kids the same thing. It's none of our business. They daven in that shul, with that rav, and we daven in our shul, with our rav. This is the way we believe we need to be, and this is right for us. We shouldn't be thinking about the choices other people make. occasionally we'll go to a kiddish in that shul. The food is 100% kosher. Things are not the way they are in our shul. We have friends there. But it doesn't have to be so confusing. My kids don't think this is weird or strange. Maybe because they're still young, but really, it's not so complicated!!

amother

Gold

Sun, Sep 17 2017, 9:40 am

Amother jade, this is the op. I specifically dont want my daughter to turn out like you which is why I posted. You may dress tzniusly but your middos and observances of ahavas yisroel dan lcaf zechus....are lacking. Both are parts of the torah but tznius is what we can see if someone keeps.

You said tell them the truth!! Is that what chabad rabbis do or anyone who has modern relatives do? Do they say "these people are not doing the right thing . They dont dress tzniusly ."....???then theyll grow up to hate others jews like in israel when some charedim spit at frum israeli soldiers.

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Sep 17 2017, 9:42 am

amother wrote:

We keep the Torah because Hashem commanded us to. That's it. We are ovdei Hashem. It doesn't mean we don't think for ourselves. It means we look for the truest route of avodas Hashem.

There's nothing wrong with saying, our community does this because we believe it's the right path. If you can't explain to your child why your path works for you, then it's time to think long and hard about your derech.

amother

Amber

Sun, Sep 17 2017, 9:53 am

amother wrote:

Telling me to say different people interpret torah differently is not the thing to say bc then shell say that shell follow their interpretation. If I can interpret torah my own way, I wouldnt keep a lot. I want to teach her we must follow our way but also want her to have ahavas yisroel towards others who are different. Many who are machmir have a holier than thou attitude which I want to avoid.

This is a real problem, OP, and I totally get it. This is the risk of being open minded. Your kid sees that there is a choice of how to be, they see options where you don't want them to see them. I don't see a way around it. This is in my opinion a big reason that those who are machmir are very narrow minded and have a holier than thou attitude. Being open minded comes with a risk and the price (for them) is too high to pay. In my personal opinion, being narrow minded has a price that's just too high for me. I have chosen to take the risk of being open minded to some extent. I send my children to schools like us, live in a neighborhood with many like us, daven in a shul with people like us, but I don't live in an enclave of only like minded people, I don't hide less observant relatives, I don't put down those less frum, and that's what feels right for me. You need to find that balance for yourself. It requires constant reevaluation, and confidence in your choices pertaining your derech ha Chaim.

saralem

Sun, Sep 17 2017, 9:54 am

How can we ever pretend to be able to look into someone else's soul and judge them??? That is Hashem's responsibility ONLY. Our job, OTOH, is to love our fellow Jew. Not judge him. When we truly get it that we are all connected regardless of what the exterior looks like, we don't need to put another Jew down in order to justify our position.
Teach your bright child to love every Jew and she will learn not to see the differences between us but the connection instead. Hatzlacha!

amother

Gold

Sun, Sep 17 2017, 10:08 am

Another amber, I knew when I wrote about not being allowed to have hair uncovered, I would get a response that a rav allows it.

That rav cant be legit in terms of saying women dont have to cover hair as "hes interpreting torah his way" but torah giants such as rav moshe feinstein and rav chaim kanievsky would never agree with it. So, no hes not legit and didnt rabbi avi weiss also have smicha ???? Yes, a lot of rabbis have valid semicha but then after they get semicha, if they start interpreting torah and basic halachos(I dont mean chumras) their way such that people dont have to keep basic halachos, they are wrong and not acting as rabbis anymore. Im sure every orthodox rav in my neighborhood even the rav of young israel would disagree with this rav and say one must cover her hair.

Anyway thats off topic, but im aware that I can find a rav to say I dont need cover....but thats what reform ppl. Do they reform torah too. I better not get started.

Anyway, in terms of everything else you wrote, it seems you are very nonjudgemental which is nice and maybe your kids are not as curious as mine or maybe you always knew what to say such that they are accepting of different types. Kudos to you.

amother

Khaki

Sun, Sep 17 2017, 10:10 am

My kids have lots of exposure to the MO world, as well as to relatives who are completely not frum, and when they were younger I thought a lot about how to explain the differences to them in a way that would not cause them to have a holier than thou attitude and would also not compromise their own observance. As they have gotten a little older (still relatively young, but older than op's daughter), I really have seen that it is not such a big deal. As long as I am confident and consistent in my derech and still treat everyone with love and warmth, my kids seem to follow suit without it rocking their boats. Kids are much more influenced by how they observe their parents acting and interacting than by explanations their parents give them. Without my having done much explaining to them, they understand that different people come from different backgrounds and educations and do things differently, that we have good reasons for doing things the way that we do, and that we don't really know how other people make their choices, nor should we comment on their choices.

esther09

Sun, Sep 17 2017, 10:14 am

amother wrote:

"Non jews dont dress like us" im the op

This is not a lie. When I tell my child this, it doesnt mean there are not jews that dress like non jews, it means we have rules of covering elbows........non jews do not have the same rules even muslims hav different rules.

My daughter knows other jews wear short sleeves or....bc she went to a mixed camp. She is not sheltered but here she is going to be with our close relatives so it is different bc its about t people who are close to us. She is aware other types exist but certain levels of observance she may question.

Esther09, im not asking you if I made a mistake but how to explain to her. If you want to criticize me for what I said at least give me constructive criticsm. Telling me to say different people interpret torah differently is not the thing to say bc then shell say that shell follow their interpretation. If I can interpret torah my own way, I wouldnt keep a lot. I want to teach her we must follow our way but also want her to have ahavas yisroel towards others who are different. Many who are machmir have a holier than thou attitude which I want to avoid.

My question then is why do you think she will react that way? Most kids would ask out of curiosity (Hey Ima, you told me Jews cover their knees but Sara doesn't, is she Jewish?). Why do you think she would respond out of a place of defiance ("well I want to follow what Sara's Rav says!"), do you have reason to believe she has a hard time with tznius? Yes, if Sara is allowed ice cream for every meal and your kid only gets broccoli, I'd understand the concern. But unless you have reason to believe otherwise, why do you think that way of dress would be so appealing to her?

In terms of constructive criticism, I would focus on her and the beauty of your approach to the laws, rather than telling them other people are wrong. If you're concerned about ahavas yisrael, don't denigrate other people. Buy her some new beautiful dresses for YT she'll be excited to wear or if it's not on the budget, her current favorite ones. Talk about how special YT is, her clothing is, how classy and elegant she looks, how ready to serve Hashem she is in those clothes. Get her excited about her clothes, the holiday, going to shul, songs, etc. and maybe try to leave the others out of it.

amother

Amber

Sun, Sep 17 2017, 10:36 am

amother wrote:

First of all, the rav is not open orthodox. Very possible his wife covers her hair, I'm not sure. Second of all, I think a young israel rabbi (they are all different) would say he Paskins you need to cover, but agree that there are more lenient opinions that hold you don't have to. He would not say Its reform to hold like that. Third of all, my kids are extremely curious, and I squash that to some extent when it comes to talking and asking about other people's behavior (yes I'm horrible mother according to some of you for doing this...). I constantly say it's not our business. That's between them and hashem, not us. We need to worry about our own mitzvos and avairos. They are still young so I don't know how accepting they'll be when they're older, and regarding myself, sometimes I catch myself being judge mental to. But I try not to be.

LovesHashem

Sun, Sep 17 2017, 11:12 am

sequoia wrote:

What exactly are people thinking when they write on a website with MO/DL posters that meeting an MO/DL person is going to destroy their kids?

I myself was cracking up. OP can never win this Q on such a site.
Basically, here's how I would say this to an adult.

Not covering your hair is an issur. One who does not cover their hair, or does not cover their elbows, knees, etc is 100 percent doing an issur in my book.

Do I know how they are being judged? NO.
Are they going to gehenom? Myabe yes, maybe not. I have no idea.

From an objective point of veiw, these things are aveiros in my book.

Would I ever tell that straight out to someone MO or who beleives different? NO. If they asked for my stance on the topic, nothing personal involved, I might tell them dependng on the situation, how close I am, etc.

So I'd tell my kids that they are doing something wrong. Kids need black and white. It is an aveirah, but we don't know what the person's din is in shamayim and we need to love and respect them like anyone else. Make sure they understand that this does not mean they are going to gehenom or a bad person. Make a game out of trying to think of why the person is doing it so your kids learn to respect them. If they ask "why isn't he wearing a kippa?" they'll learn the game and you ask them back "why do you think a Jew might not wear a kippa?"

Kids are very smart. They'll give their own answers like: "he doesn't know what a kippa is"
"his kippa fell off and he needs to get a new one" "he's too poor"

and you can jump in with the more complicated answers like: "maybe he doesn't realize how much hashem loves when his children to wear kippas" or "maybe where he comes from a lot of people dont wear" or "maybe he even thinks its right not to wear a kippa" etc.

Amarante

Sun, Sep 17 2017, 11:14 am

Just for the record, Reform Jews would have a Rabbi who would not impose clothing restrictions so short skirts and cleavage would be acceptable. I assume we are not talking completely immodest women with skirts up to their pupiks as my Bubbe used to say but within the norm of secular women who would not be mistaken for hookers :-) As an aside, was anyone else mystified that a chicken also had a pupik since chickens had no belly buttons and I thought the pupik on a human was the belly button. LOL

Reform Jews are Jews - at least in my opinion and are following their religious conscience. FWIW, there is quite a bit of difference between Reform Jews and Jews who have completely abandoned any sort of religion and either don't identify as Jews or identify as Jews in just the broadest cultural sense.

Reform Rabbis are learned people in the Torah. They just have chosen to interpret it in their manner and their congregation would also have a knowledge of how they are deliberately choosing to practice their religion.

tichellady

Sun, Sep 17 2017, 11:43 am

amother wrote:

Are you actually open to hearing other perspectives or you want to say your viewpoint?

simcha2

Sun, Sep 17 2017, 12:09 pm

amother wrote:

I'm spending Rosh Hashanah with my relatives who are very modern. I don't have anything against modern Jews, I try to respect all different types of Jews but my problem is how to explain to my daughter.

She knows she and I have to dress in tznius and I tell her non jews dont dress like us when she sees ppl. Dressing differently but she will be wondering why my relatives are not dressing tznius BC she's young but knows that Jews dress a certain way.

I dont want her to think negatively of my relatives but shell think they are non jews if I don't explain.....shell definitely ask me about it. (my husband was very sheltered and was raised with hardly any interaction with more modern Jews so he thought my relatives were non jews but he's an adult so its easy to explain to him....)

Can anyone advise me as to what to say??? I want my kids to know what's out there but also have respect for all different types of Jews but to know we all struggle with different things, some ppl. Have good midos but may struggle with tznius or.......

Depends on her age:

Very young. "Hashem loves all people and all Jews. Torah Jews know the Torah and try to do the mitzvot. In different families people do the mitzvot differently but they are still Torah Jews and we love them just like Hashem does."

Older: "there is halacha and hashkafa, sometimes it is hard to see the lines. But this is our hashkafa and that is theirs. Let's remember "shivim panim l'Torah". We have to be extra careful we are not oiver a halacha (v'ahavta lreicha kmocha, al tisnei etc) by being makpid on a chumra or hashkafa as we must not become a chosdid shoteh"