How do I tell my kids about relatives baby

simba

Mon, Sep 18 2017, 10:48 pm

Fox wrote:

Let's follow this line of reasoning through. Precisely what are you going to say to your teenager that will provide some kind of useful life lesson?

"Obviously Aunt Geraldine and Uncle Max were fooling around before the wedding, because here it is not six months later and they just had a baby! I certainly hope you never do such a thing!"

or

"What a shanda to the family. Not married six months and having a baby! What will people think? And they both came from such nice families! Don't you ever disgrace us that way!"

or even

"Whew! To be honest, we're all kind of relieved. The whole family thought Uncle Max was gay. Apparently not. Or at least not very gay."

Casting your relatives as bad examples is only going to open up several avenues of thought or conversation, and none of them is good:

* A conversation of this nature is going to inexorably lead to speculation about your relatives' s-x lives or their contraceptive failures. Given the resources available for presenting the facts of life to kids of all ages, I can't imagine a situation in which loshen hora about specific people or situations -- and with whom the child is acquainted, no less! -- would be justified.

* Are you sure your child's filter is as good as you think? Do you really want young Master Chaim to blurt out, "Mazel tov, Uncle Max! Everyone is so happy you're not gay after all!" or for young Miss Shaindy to say, "So Aunt Geraldine, did you, like, forget to take your pill or something?" If you think your pre-teen is too savvy to say any such thing, there are plenty of us here who can disabuse you of the notion.

"Whitewashing" is precisely what is needed. How many threads have we had on Imamother where someone in a vulnerable position has been hurt by a thoughtless inquiry or comment? There are certain things that polite people don't notice. Included in that category are the number of months between weddings and births; the timing and frequency of births; the attractiveness and health of new babies; the appearance of pregnancy or lack thereof; and most definitely, the activities on the part of people that led to the pregnancy.

None of that is incompatible with providing, according to your preference, either detailed or vague s-x education. None of it precludes discussing the Torah view of love and marriage with your child or educating your child about contraception, safe s-x, or whatever else you think necessary.

However, children need to learn that there are things that are appropriate to know but are nevertheless inappropriate to speculate about or discuss. Otherwise they will grow up into adults who whisper when a childless woman walks into the room or who offer unsolicited opinions about the spacing or frequency of reproduction.

Firstly I must admit I love your energy and dramatics at this time of night. You almost intimidated me to wait until morning so I have more brain space and can attempt to match your oomph!

I didnt have a script but you are forcing me to put one together.

Mommy: kids, guess what uncle max and aunt Geraldine had a baby girl. Isn't that exciting..look at he pics she sent me!

Best case scenario: it goes over everyone's head, they look at the pictures, say aww, and promptly forget about it.

More likely scenario:

Teenager: huh? How did that happen mommy, they just got married like yesterday, doesn't it take 9 months for the stork to fly from shamayim and deliver the baby?

Mommy: good question Chaim..the truths is it does take 9 months for a baby to grow fully in a mommy's tummy. Seems like something happened here that HaShem made the baby start to grow even before they were married. You know that when a girl and boy act like a mommy and tatty they can also have a baby.

Chaim: huh? What does that mean? Act like mommy and tatty?

Mommy: there are many different threads to choose the rest of this narrrartive from...

Worst case scenario:

Chaim: ooohh..I know what they did, Sholom told me that a boy can stick his front tush into a girl and they have a baby. Uncle max is a [gentile]..

Mommy: choose narrative from many threads on raising children not to be judgemental, and the one on healthy body images and the one on you better tell your kid about zex or someone else will!

End of script

The likelihood of the uncles zexual orientation or the aunts by method of BBC ending up here are slim.

I agree that children need to be then told that this is a private conversation and should not be repeated. They will repeat it anyways, that is also fine. That is how Sholom found out from Chaim about zex and the world goes on..

I did say I find no harm in just not saying anything at all. I just don't think it is the only option.

simba

Mon, Sep 18 2017, 10:50 pm

tichellady wrote:

Totally agree!
Also just want to remind Op and everyone else that not every child is the product of consentual sx or sx at all.

Zex at all? Maybe I am the one who is ill informed??
You mean like maybe this couple did ivf but kept Shomer negia?

tichellady

Tue, Sep 19 2017, 1:19 am

simba wrote:

Zex at all? Maybe I am the one who is ill informed??
You mean like maybe this couple did ivf but kept Shomer negia?

Im not talking about this couple. I am just saying that just because a woman is pregnant doesn't mean she had consentual sx or sx at all. There are all sorts of ways that babies are made outside of regular married sx.

amother

Orchid

Tue, Sep 19 2017, 1:24 am

I would say that when a man and women live together like a husband and wife, and sleep in the same bed, the woman can become pregnant as if they were married.
It shouldn't be done according to the Torah, but that's what they must have done.

That way you don't have to explain the ins-and-outs of intimacy if you don't want to at this stage.

amother

Ivory

Tue, Sep 19 2017, 4:15 am

I dont think beacuae of this you have to give them a class on reproduction.

this is a possibility.
"I would say that when a man and women live together like a husband and wife, and sleep in the same bed, the woman can become pregnant as if they were married.
It shouldn't be done according to the Torah, but that's what they must have done.
I would leave out the bed part

Personally I would ask a rav or rebetzien... its quite sticky

your children dont need a crash course this minute because of another's actions but in a way maybe this is your chance to say something 'pareve' to the older children.... many will tell you rather let your children hear from you than from friends at school.

Also, I dont think you need to say something till someone else says something or before they will see them,.... at that point little kids wont need an explanation and prepare the older ones before hand so they wont ask question either in public or in front of the younger ones.

amother

Azure

Tue, Sep 19 2017, 4:19 am

If they don't ask, don't offer more info. A relative of mines had premarital sx and I found out that he was born 6 months after the wedding instead of 10 months after, when I was like 20.

fmt4

Tue, Sep 19 2017, 6:08 am

simba wrote:

Chaim: ooohh..I know what they did, Sholom told me that a boy can stick his front tush into a girl and they have a baby. Uncle max is a [gentile]..

Mommy: choose narrative from many threads on raising children not to be judgemental, and the one on healthy body images and the one on you better tell your kid about zex or someone else will!
.

Please, please PLEASE tell me that no one's teenage sons are using the word front tush. I dont want to see

saw50st8

Tue, Sep 19 2017, 7:42 am

I would tell them in the context of "Mazal tov! Chaim and Sara had a beautiful baby. Let's make a card and send a present."

If they ask, I would tell the older kids (early teens right?) that yes, not everyone waits until they get married.

amother

Orchid

Tue, Sep 19 2017, 7:46 am

saw50st8 wrote:

She said right at the beginning, that they don't yet know about sx.
So that answer would not make sense to them - "not everyone waits for what?..."
She doesn't want to have to explain it all now, just because of this new cousin.

saw50st8

Tue, Sep 19 2017, 8:16 am

She said they don't know much, not that they don't know anything.

Kids in general can handle a lot more than we give them credit for.

Ruchel

Tue, Sep 19 2017, 8:45 am

If they say nothing, say nothing.
If they comment, tell about preemies.
If they somehow know it isn't the case, and they weren't at the chuppa, you could say the chuppa was before the civil wedding.

I would not tell low teens about "oh not everyone waits". Not everyone refrains from pork either. So what? It's not just a choice like blue or green dress Confused

On top of that, why make them look down on this couple if avoidable?

I'll probably be bashed by the liberal crowd so I'll say bubye Wink

saw50st8

Tue, Sep 19 2017, 9:02 am

Yes, we make a lot of choices in life. My kids know that not all Jewish people refrain from driving on shabbat (our neighbors are Jewish but not observant). They know that not all people keep strictly kosher. They know that keeping halacha is a choice we make because we believe it is the right choice.

13-14 year olds can handle nuance. They can understand a lot. I would rather my kids choose to be orthodox and understand that choice then wake up at 18 and say "What? I can make other choices?" and go crazy.

simba

Tue, Sep 19 2017, 9:12 am

fmt4 wrote:

Please, please PLEASE tell me that no one's teenage sons are using the word front tush. I dont want to see

I don't have teenage sons yet! Just used it for dramatics.

pause

Tue, Sep 19 2017, 9:39 am

simba wrote:

Zex at all? Maybe I am the one who is ill informed??
You mean like maybe this couple did ivf but kept Shomer negia?

simba

Tue, Sep 19 2017, 9:43 am

tichellady wrote:

Like non-married Zex? What do you mean? I honestly don't understand your statement. Telling the kids she may have gotten raped?
Tell the kids they went swimming the same body of water, at different times obviously! Tznius! and somehow something came out of him then went into her and now they have a baby?
Virgin Mary style?

I am not mocking, I just don't understand what point you are getting at?

simba

Tue, Sep 19 2017, 9:48 am

Ruchel wrote:

On top of that, why make them look down on this couple if avoidable?

I'll probably be bashed by the liberal crowd so I'll say bubye Wink

I am not a liberal by any stretch but I will question you!
Wondering why you would tell your kids about preemies at this time? Outright lie. They are teenagers. They will find out this info shortly. Why are you concocting stories about Chuppa and civil marriage.. this seems so off to me?
Maybe I just don't have teenagers yet so I should bow out of this conversation.
Just seems so contradictory to the many threads where 80% of amothers are pro being open with your teenage children about this topic.
My mother would have never lied to me about this. She would have told me the truth. Big deal?

Fox

Tue, Sep 19 2017, 12:11 pm

Having cogitated a bit on this, I think we're all barking up the wrong tree.

I don't think this a s-x education question; I think it's a "non-frum relatives" question.

The OP indicated that her kids are in their early teens. While some kids that age might be blessedly self-absorbed enough not to notice the small clues that someone is not observant of halacha, my guess is that her kids already have a pretty good idea that Uncle Max and Aunt Geraldine aren't on the same page, religiously speaking, as the rest of the family.

Pretending that everyone is frum works well enough when kids are little, but at a certain point, it morphs from an omission to an outright deception. Once you've had the conversation where you say, essentially, "We love Uncle Max and Aunt Geraldine very much, and they are fine people. Unfortunately, they don't appreciate the beauty of mitzvos, and we daven every day that they will come to see how much richer life is when you embrace Yiddishkeit."

Once this is established, it's a lot easier to convey news of lifecycle events without constructing explanations that resemble a house of cards. And if one of the kids really pushes for a discussion about marriage and childbearing, you've already established the fact that your values and your relative's values are very different. You won't have to get into the nitty-gritty details of what they've done wrong.

You can then focus on the fact that a new Jewish neshama is entering the world (at least I'm assuming it's a Jewish neshama . . .) and that alone is a reason for simcha.

amother

Oak

Tue, Sep 19 2017, 12:31 pm

Fox wrote:

You can then focus on the fact that a new Jewish neshama is entering the world (at least I'm assuming it's a Jewish neshama . . .) and that alone is a reason for simcha.

Really? The baby will be a mamzer, it's going to have a hard life.

Fox

Tue, Sep 19 2017, 12:32 pm

amother wrote:

Really? The baby will be a mamzer, it's going to have a hard life.

Why do you assume that?

sequoia

Tue, Sep 19 2017, 12:36 pm

amother wrote:

Really? The baby will be a mamzer, it's going to have a hard life.

Huh? A mamzer is when the woman was married to someone else.