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Poor Melania
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 20 2017, 9:12 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
It's a well known secret that one of the ways that Obama was planning to fund his healthcare system was in cutting care for the terminally ill - you know, the last six months of a person's life is the most expensive, so why not encourage someone who is dying anyway that they want a "death with dignity" - and "encouragement" can easily turn into coercion, etc.

Aren't you afraid that the deep state will hack into the site, find out who you are, and disappear you?
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 20 2017, 9:25 am
imasoftov wrote:
Aren't you afraid that the deep state will hack into the site, find out who you are, and disappear you?


I am more worried about the deep state listening into the Republican candidate's conversation, trying to influence the election, and undermining this administration.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 20 2017, 9:29 am
SuperWify wrote:
He's extremely rude to her in public. Not the way a normal president would treat his wife. I really wonder what goes on in their home.
I'm starting to believe speculations that he abuses her (or at the very least mistreats her)
I wasn't an Obama fan but the way he treated his wife is admirable. Like she was a queen.


Of course he mistreats her. Is there anyone he DOESN'T mistreat?

Oh, yeah. David Duke and his herd of haters. Them, he treats very well.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 20 2017, 11:21 am
imasoftov wrote:
Aren't you afraid that the deep state will hack into the site, find out who you are, and disappear you?


imasoftov, we have freedom of speech here in America. Trust me, if everyone who says something bad about either Obama, Hilary, or Trump would disappear, there would be three people left in the United States.
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 20 2017, 11:27 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
I don't agree. This is a free country, and ordinary Americans have access to the same healthcare as his own son - they just have to pay for it. What's going to happen here is that this country is going to turn into socialized medicine - kill off the old people, huge waiting lists for procedures that are not an emergency...

There is no such thing as free healthcare. There is no such thing as free anything. Someone always has to pay, and my feeling is it won't be Warren Buffet.


The hyperbole and hysteria does little to further your arguments.

As to killing off the old people, remember it was Geo Bush (the younger) who pioneered futile care laws by signing the first of it's kind in TX. Bush was more interested in killing off the young and the vulnerable (ie. disabled) then the oldsters.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 20 2017, 11:30 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
imasoftov, we have freedom of speech here in America. Trust me, if everyone who says something bad about either Obama, Hilary, or Trump would disappear, there would be three people left in the United States.


and they would all be under the age of 8 months.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 20 2017, 11:34 am
petiteruchy wrote:
You realize that old people in the us are already on socialized medicine, right?

Honestly, you Americans and your ridiculous resistance to a health care system that works... eventually people are just going to walk away and stop trying to explain it to you.

Anecdotes are not data, but even so, for every one of your supposed doctors and nurses hating on health care systems that actually provide care for all citizens, I have a dozen that say the opposite. Plus there's the data. You're right, nothing is free. We all pay for our health care, we've just managed not to do it on the backs of the already sick, the poor or the unemployed. Taxes will go up. But you're already paying for your health care, and dollar for dollar, getting less.

So fine, stick your heads in the sand and pretend it's the only possible way. Meanwhile, we'll be over here, enjoying our boring routine preventative care and death panels.


No, not all old people in the US are on socialized medicine. Medicare only covers a percentage, most people I know have supplementary coverage as well. At least, this was last year, this year, who knows?

If anecdotal evidence means people I know that were basically killed (because they were denied care because they were too old), I do know people who this happened to. Also, if I'm friends with a nurse, and she told me that their policy is to withhold certain treatment for supposedly terminally ill patients, without the patients or families consent, does that mean it's anecdotal? Should I assume she's lying?

Do you have to wait for a study, for thousands of people to die before you realize that it's true?

And, I may not be very current on the European economy, but the last time I checked the European Union is not doing that great economically (thanks to socialized medicine, unemployment, among other benefits), and it's only Germany that is keeping the Union afloat.

Besides, you do realize that America has more than caught up with Europe, don't you? We're basically socialized here as well. Between Medicaid, Food Stamps, unemployment, HUD/Section 8, free public school, subsidized college, SSI and who knows what I else that I can't think of off the top of my head, and the fact that a middle class family pays almost half their salary to taxes, I don't know that we're behind Europe anymore. Oh, maybe that's why our economy is doing so poorly? Just a thought.

And its a myth that if you don't have insurance you don't get healthcare in America. If you walk into a hospital, they are required by law to treat you, even if they know you don't have the money to pay. They may send their lawyers after you later, but if you don't have the money, they can't get money you don't have. Illegals, homeless and uninsured people use the emergency room as their private doctors all the time. Which is probably why you get billed four dollars a Tylenol when you have a baby - you're subsidizing all those other people. The American health care system is very, very broken, but as far as access - it's only a matter of being within driving distance of a hospital.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 20 2017, 11:42 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
I don't agree. This is a free country, and ordinary Americans have access to the same healthcare as his own son - they just have to pay for it. What's going to happen here is that this country is going to turn into socialized medicine - kill off the old people, huge waiting lists for procedures that are not an emergency...

There is no such thing as free healthcare. There is no such thing as free anything. Someone always has to pay, and my feeling is it won't be Warren Buffet.


A large number of women on this site are on Medicaid, or receive subsidies through the ACA. Both are forms of socialized medicine.

Are you comfortable telling these women that if, chas v'shalom, they have a sick baby, that baby should simply be allowed to die, given that they cannot afford healthcare costs.

I have a BIL who is disabled and has a number of serious medical issues. He's flat broke. Absent Medicaid, he would die. Are you comfortable telling him sorry, your life isn't worth it?

You're right. Its not free. And I'm happy to pay a few more dollars in taxes so that someone's baby can survive.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 20 2017, 12:00 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
A large number of women on this site are on Medicaid, or receive subsidies through the ACA. Both are forms of socialized medicine.

Are you comfortable telling these women that if, chas v'shalom, they have a sick baby, that baby should simply be allowed to die, given that they cannot afford healthcare costs.

I have a BIL who is disabled and has a number of serious medical issues. He's flat broke. Absent Medicaid, he would die. Are you comfortable telling him sorry, your life isn't worth it?

You're right. Its not free. And I'm happy to pay a few more dollars in taxes so that someone's baby can survive.


Did I say that I don't believe in Medicaid? Of course not.

I was just pointing out that the perception of the United States as a free economy is completely untrue. Practically speaking, we are basically almost up to Europe in that we are almost as socialized as Europe is, it's just a slightly different system, with different labels.

I'm NOT saying that I'm against Medicaid, food stamps, etc. I'm not a Republican, I do NOT agree with Rush Limbaugh on many of the things he says. He's living in a fantasy world if he thinks that its possible to privatize health insurance completely in 2017. There are just too many reasons why that can't happen, which I can go into when I have more time, maybe.

But there has to be some kind of balance. There's a fantasy on the left as well, that it's possible to structure the economic system so that it's fair to everyone. I think that the USSR has already tried that, and it's been proven not to work.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 20 2017, 12:08 pm
I wasn't going to get personal, but since everyone here is so on board with Obamacare...

I, personally, am going to lose my insurance in three months. That means that I will have either no insurance for me or my kids, or a very minimal insurance that will pay 25% of any doctor's fees - which is basically the same thing.

I am not eligible for Obamacare because my husband's employer offers insurance. The premiums in the insurance that I have had through my husband's employer have more than tripled in the last year (probably due to the new laws in the Obamacare legislation), making it pretty much unaffordable for us. We will have to simply go off the insurance.

Just wondering, why is my blood any less red than someone who's on Medicaid?
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 20 2017, 12:15 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
...

Just wondering, why is my blood any less red than someone who's on Medicaid?


Because, by and large, the people who voted for the current president don't really care and socialism is a dirty word. (Heck I'm surprised it's not included in the auto censor function of the website software.)
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 20 2017, 12:19 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
A large number of women on this site are on Medicaid, or receive subsidies through the ACA. Both are forms of socialized medicine.

Are you comfortable telling these women that if, chas v'shalom, they have a sick baby, that baby should simply be allowed to die, given that they cannot afford healthcare costs.

I have a BIL who is disabled and has a number of serious medical issues. He's flat broke. Absent Medicaid, he would die. Are you comfortable telling him sorry, your life isn't worth it?

You're right. Its not free. And I'm happy to pay a few more dollars in taxes so that someone's baby can survive.


And my husband and I both work, and we're about to lose our medical coverage (because of Obamacare). Are you comfortable telling us sorry, our lives aren't worth it?
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 20 2017, 12:29 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
And my husband and I both work, and we're about to lose our medical coverage (because of Obamacare). Are you comfortable telling us sorry, our lives aren't worth it?


Well, you're the one who said:

Quote:
And its a myth that if you don't have insurance you don't get healthcare in America. If you walk into a hospital, they are required by law to treat you, even if they know you don't have the money to pay. They may send their lawyers after you later, but if you don't have the money, they can't get money you don't have. Illegals, homeless and uninsured people use the emergency room as their private doctors all the time. Which is probably why you get billed four dollars a Tylenol when you have a baby - you're subsidizing all those other people. The American health care system is very, very broken, but as far as access - it's only a matter of being within driving distance of a hospital.


So, hey, it doesn't matter. You're going to have amazing health care. You just told us that.
What are you worried about?

Or is it just that you want government legislation to ensure that your health care premiums don't rise (in the precipitous manner they were pre-ACA), but don't care if someone who lost her home due to unemployment, or whose parents brought her into the country undocumented to escape war, dies on the street.

BTW, you're just wrong about this stuff. ERs can and do refuse to treat NON-EMERGENCY cases.

And IMNSHO, we need to ensure that everyone has access to healthcare. Including you. And the homeless. And undocumented aliens.
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 20 2017, 12:33 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
And my husband and I both work, and we're about to lose our medical coverage (because of Obamacare). Are you comfortable telling us sorry, our lives aren't worth it?


Don't blame Obama. Blame those folks inside the beltline that are seeking to dump the PPACA and refuse to limit the profiteering of the insurance carriers.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 20 2017, 12:35 pm
I never said that emergency room healthcare is AMAZING healthcare. I said that for people who did not want to invest in health insurance (not people who are poor and can't afford - I'm totally pro Medicaid) there is healthcare.

Edit: I actually meant to say that the country is paying for it, so the burden on the people is already there. US citizens are paying either through higher premiums or higher taxes so that the government can bail out the hospitals. Obviously it's ridiculous to use the ER as a primary care doctor. I'm sorry if that didn't come across clear.

People prioritize. For people who have the money and decided not to spend it on healthcare insurance, why should I subsidize them? And now be unable to afford health insurance for myself?

My insurance premiums tripled in the past year, after Obamacare was passed. Not before.


Last edited by Mommyg8 on Wed, Sep 20 2017, 1:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 20 2017, 12:39 pm
MagentaYenta wrote:
Don't blame Obama. Blame those folks inside the beltline that are seeking to dump the PPACA and refuse to limit the profiteering of the insurance carriers.


I don't have time to follow every news item (I wish I did). Can you elaborate? Thanks.
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petiteruchy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 20 2017, 12:49 pm
I'm telling you that if you lived in Canada, you would never lose your health insurance. The homeless, the poor, the undocumented, they don't have to clog up an emergency room (although our system isn't perfect and unfortunately many marginalized groups don't have the same access as the majority) or face collectors bills. The fact that you even think that's an option? That in order to get treatment for your heart attack you should lose your wages or have your car repossessed? That's sick thinking, in my book.

I've lived in both countries, and when we were in the US, we had well paying jobs with employer insurance, so don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about or that Canadians are running across the border to get that amazing US healthcare. Individuals have experiences, bad and good, and some Canadians do complain, but the numbers don't back them up. For the average working class or middle class Canadian, our health care system works in a far superior way to what they would experience in the US. Not to mention, since you keep going on about choice... your INSURANCE COMPANY CHOOSES YOUR CARE. Not you, not your doctor. Your insurance company denies valid claims all the time. They choose not to fund experimental treatments, or cap your care for expensive and long running illnesses like cancer. You already have no choice. So you can change insurance companies, but you're still tied to their rules and providers. Did you know that I could, if I wanted, visit my childhood doctor in another province and my provincial healthcare would pay? Why would I, since I can choose any doctor I like in my city, but I could.


Have you ever had to help a little kid that's badly broken or injured a limb? You know how irrational they get about anyone trying to clean the wound or set the bone? They can't think ahead far enough to understand that if they don't accept treatment, the wound or break will fester and damage the limb even worse. The ACA was a bandaid fix for a mangled arm, of course it's not working as well as it should. But the alternative was either to continue to let the patient bleed out, or to actually set the broken bones, clear away the dead flesh and go through the painful healing process. The American people would have been ready to put up with the pain to get the gain, but the politicians and the lobbyists whose pockets they're in convinced them that it wasn't going to help.

Believe me, the rest of the world with nationally funded or socialized medicine, are looking at the US dragging around this horribly infected, gangrenous arm with the little ACA bandaid plastered on top and wondering how it's possible to get to this point.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 20 2017, 1:33 pm
I don't know how it works in Canada, as I've never been there. I can tell you that the system under Obamacare is even more broken than before, at least the way I see it. It's possible that it may be due to the crazy legislation that was part of Obamacare and that nobody actually read.

One of the things I do know - Obama wanted all the records to be digitalized and centralized. Doctors are now spending more time recording everything than providing healthcare. It's costing more money, and those costs are being passed on to the consumer. Those on Obamacare are subsidized, but those who are not - like me - are not subsidized, so we get to feel the brunt of the increase in healthcare.

Where I live, Obamacare caused the doctors to be overloaded as it took more time and money to treat each patient, and for a while I could not get any appointment by my doctor, as they now had to take less patients per hours. Coincidentally, a year later, there are suddenly all of these urgent care centers that have sprung up - that charge double what a regular doctor would charge.

Is anybody but me connecting the dots?
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WhatFor




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 20 2017, 3:12 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
I don't know how it works in Canada, as I've never been there. I can tell you that the system under Obamacare is even more broken than before, at least the way I see it. It's possible that it may be due to the crazy legislation that was part of Obamacare and that nobody actually read.

One of the things I do know - Obama wanted all the records to be digitalized and centralized. Doctors are now spending more time recording everything than providing healthcare. It's costing more money, and those costs are being passed on to the consumer. Those on Obamacare are subsidized, but those who are not - like me - are not subsidized, so we get to feel the brunt of the increase in healthcare.

Where I live, Obamacare caused the doctors to be overloaded as it took more time and money to treat each patient, and for a while I could not get any appointment by my doctor, as they now had to take less patients per hours. Coincidentally, a year later, there are suddenly all of these urgent care centers that have sprung up - that charge double what a regular doctor would charge.

Is anybody but me connecting the dots?


Obamacare was not Obama's ideal. He wanted a socialized healthcare type system but made concessions to pass some version of an improved healthcare plan. This raised premiums for some ppl but allowed others who weren't eligible for a normal healthcare plan to pay for affordable healthcare. But this was not the end game and he wanted it to be improved upon.

Capitalism does not practically work out in the context of healthcare. Businesses tend to have a fiduciary duty to make decisions that are most profitable for the business. Oftentimes such decisions conflict with the moral choice. Why should an insurance company choose to insure a high-risk individual who will undoubtedly cost the business tens of thousands more than they'll ever be paying into the business? It almost has a duty to the business to deny this person insurance or charge ridiculously high premiums to justify the risk.

At the same time, what about all those people with preexisting conditions who could never afford such high premiums? Obama made it so that insurance companies were forced to take them. This may be a reason premiums went up?

At the end of the day everyone is entitled to affordable healthcare. How do we ensure that people who can afford healthcare pay for it? How about taking it out of their taxes? That's how a socialized healthcare system works and given that ours doesn't, maybe we should try it the working way.
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 20 2017, 3:24 pm
It's interesting that no one here is complaining about the latest in Trumpcare.

Money previously given to states (to match) to fund medicaid expansion will turn into block grants. The amount of $$ received by each state will be determined by how much $$ they spent on medicaid expansion. The more money the state spent, the smaller their block grant will be. Red states who did not receive $ for medicaid expansion will receive more $$. States will also be determining if they will continue the PPACA position on pre existing conditions. These are just some of the highspots. Insurance companies will be given free rein in establishing how much money they spend on administrative costs (to include executive salaries).
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