Letting dc play with kids from broken homes

amother

Pink

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 3:46 pm

I only read parts of this thread, but wanted to share the following.....

I am divorced (and work outside the home), and B"H my children have many friends who come to our house on a regular basis, and who invite them to their houses. Many mothers have told me what a pleasure my children are to have for playdates, and have asked me to have their kids over to my house when they need a place to send them after school or on a day off (if I am off that day as well). Because I have a small family, as is probably more common among divorcees, I am able to devote a lot of time to each child and be very tuned into their needs. There is actually less hefkeirus in our home than in many homes I am familiar with in which the needs of a large family are being juggled. In fact, I think that is part of why certain of my children's friends enjoy coming here...it is calm and peaceful and they get a lot of attention.

Of course my children are affected by the divorce, but they get a lot of support from a loving extended family and I devote a lot of time and energy to helping them navigate their struggles. If you spent days and weeks observing my children among their classmates, I doubt very much that you would guess they are from a divorced home. Also, in their years in school I have never been told that they have any sort of behavioral issue, in fact quite the opposite.

OP, I don't know your DS's friend so I have no idea if he is someone you should want as a friend for your son. However, to say that all children from divorced homes have behavioral issues and are unsuitable friends sounds like a gross overgeneralization.

gold21

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 4:23 pm

Squishy wrote:

As I said, the allergies didn't exist just like Salem didn't have witches.

If you can't realize there aren't trends in behaviors, then what can I tell you?

Do you believe member of mobs independently start rioting without on their own? All the independent thinkers thought it up independently and they weren't informed by the behaviors around them? Each individual reached their own conclusion. It was only coincidence that geography they were near each other.

Have you ever heard a great entertainer and a few people initially applaud and get to their feet, then more do. Finally, the last ones who never had the intention follow the crowd and stand because the crowd is standing.

On imamother, many times a thread will start and the first 7 or so posters take one point of view, and then they either heckle or support the poster. Only after someone posts in opposition does the thread become balanced.

As to your last point, I have, many times, been the first to take an opposing position on a thread. It doesn't really bother me to take an unpopular position, if anything I get a kick out of it. Lol.

Yeah, the whole idea of "The Wave" is a real thing, proving how easily swayed humans are. But I don't believe it's like that across the board. I think some people are more easily swayed than others. All kinds of people with all kinds of natures.

yehudis1056

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 4:24 pm

Squishy wrote:

Read up about behavioral contagion which is a type of social influence. It refers to the tendency for certain behavior by one person to be copied by others who are either nearby the original person, or who have been exposed to media coverage describing the behavior of the original person.

You can which the ripple effect with the kneeling during the anthem in the NFL. It is spreading way beyond the football field.

I notice this phenomena with allergies. In my kid's class, one person was allergic to peanuts, so they were banned as snack. Then another and another and another person claimed an allergy. We kept getting notes of what not to send in.

When a close friend gets divorced that increases the risk of divorce. I stayed friends with my friend going through her divorce. My marriage is strong. If it weren't, knowing what I do, I may have chosen the path taken by the LCSW.

When my friend started dating, I started ruminating on how much I loved dating. There was a small piece of me that wished I was there. This never would have happened but for the fact my friend was dating. Now, if I were miserable in my marriage a much greater piece of me would want to be dating.

Unfortunately I know many people who are divorced. This has absolutely no impact on my marriage nor do I wish to emulate them by any stretch of the imagination. Divorce isn't a behavior any more than allergies are. Sorry but it doesn't make sense to me. I admire them for being brave enough to make the best decision for their families but it doesn't effect my marriage.

amother

Indigo

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 5:28 pm

Squishy wrote:

I disagree. It is the elephant in the room in this discussion. You can't solve a problem unless you identify it.

If I were OP, or came from a closed community, the impression I would come away with is that there are lots of really angry divorcees out there. Personally, I avoid bringing my children near angry moms.

Ok, so we identify the problem: people pigeonholing divorced families.
Problem solving: members of the community need to stop pigeonholing divorced families.

The anger stems from people being shunned and/or ridiculed. A woman who is peturbed because her community is shunning her can still host her children's friends. She doesn't lose the capacity to be a kind, loving mother and surrogate mother to her children's playdates just because she's a bit peeved at some of the adults in the community...

33055

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 6:36 pm

yehudis1056 wrote:

People close to you getting a divorce, and learning about a close friend's friend getting a divorce increases the risk factor of you getting a divorce. Whether you choose to acknowledge it is immaterial to whether or not it exists. Closing your eyes and denying it does not make it go away. I rather live my life knowing what is happening.

For the 4th time, the behavior I was discussing was not having an allergy. It was claiming to have an allergy.

yehudis1056

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 6:41 pm

Squishy wrote:

I vehemently disagree. My eyes ain't closed my heart is open to my friends who are in pain my risk based on such friendships alone is nil. I know what is happening. I try to live my life by the saying "there by the grace of G-d go we" my friends aren't tainting my marriage. I am lucky in my marriage - I'm not smarter or a better person I'm just lucky. And I pray that I am never in such a situation where people will G-d forbid look at my circumstances and stay away out of fear that they'll "catch" something from me.

33055

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 7:26 pm

yehudis1056 wrote:

Let's assume for a moment, the folks at Harvard and Brown and Pew Research are correct and the risk increases. Why can't people make knowing informed choices? Does knowing something mean your heart is closed?

Where is your studies that says the effect on folks is nil?

Suppose you can do something to offset the increased risk? Isn't it better to know?

Also, knowing there are scientific studies that support the LCSW's position helps me DKLZ her.

33055

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 7:42 pm

oliveoil wrote:

Look, you consistently state that outrageous things are all-around fact in everyone's lives or in the Jewish community as a whole. I don't know whether you actually believe that or not, but the vast majority of your claims, if truthful at all, are true to only a very, very tiny group.

You follow me around unsuccessfully trying to call me out. I have repeatedly challenged you to state ONE thing I have said that is not true. Yet, you have never come up with one single thing.

Let's limit it to what I said on this thread so as not to derail it. (Prior claims you challenged have been tzedducah for luxuries and massive defrauding of the government by Jews.)

On this thread, I said there is a prejudice against divorced people in the community. Others on this thread have confirmed this.

I also posted some publicized studies backed up with cites.

Please tell me what is only in my delusional world that only exists there this time.

amother

Lemon

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 7:56 pm

I take serious offense at this. As someone who has divorced parents, and is completely and emotionally stable, this post comes across as close-minded and just awful.

Unfortunately, I have met so many people who have pushed away others with divorce and in not "tarnishing" their perfect family. Years later, each of these people have either divorced or have had family members divorce. Its reality.

Anonymous only because I write a lot of personal info and don't want anyone to figure out who I am.

RebekahsMom

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 9:38 pm

Squishy- I’ve read several studies and think that there’s still some flaws to the mentality.

People don’t divorce because their friends do. People don’t divorce unless there’s already a serious problem.

My husband and I both have divorced parents. We have lived in fear of divorce since day 1. But that fear drives us to work harder because the odds are against us. At least half of my friends are divorced. It makes it harder to understand their problems, but I certainly don’t want to walk in their shoes!

I often wonder how many divorces are related to race/ religions/ communities/ economic level. OP makes it sound like divorce is unheard of in her area and people are likely shunned if they do. That really skews the results of a 75% divorce rate.

Raisin

Fri, Sep 29 2017, 1:49 am

amother wrote:

Your Mom sounds wonderful.
But...
Why are those two situations at all in the same sentence??
When I was divorced with one child, we had the most relaxed, positive, happy environment imaginable. I had a good job, my household was NOT hemorrhaging money anymore and I had time and energy to devote to my child and his playdate.
I understand that some divorced households are chaotic, but I imagine they are a lot less chaotic than they were during the marriage.

I heard divorced women say that often they end up socially isolated after divorce. Divorced men get showered with shabbos invitations, less so divorced women.

imasoftov

Fri, Sep 29 2017, 2:49 am

Also from the CNN article "Not only can the risk of divorce spread from one couple to their friends or family, it can also affect relationships at least two degrees of separation away from the original couple splitting up". So just cutting off divorced people wouldn't be full protection, you'd also have to do the same to anyone who stays in contact with divorced people. Perhaps it wouldn't be necessary to investigate people to find out if they have any first-degree contact with divorce, as contagion only spreads by mention of divorce, but more research would have to be done.

Another thing to study would be how much of the contagion is caused by the initial mention of divorce compared to continued contact, which would help people decide if they should terminate a conversation as soon as divorce is mentioned. Also if the effect diminishes with time or after remarriage.

And does it affect people who come into contact with divorce not socially but in the course of their jobs? Therapists (licensed or otherwise), lawyers, judges and other court employees (secular or rabbinic), mediators, etc. Or private investigators, whether they look for proof of infidelity, or track down missing spouses? How about aguna activists? People who respond to aguna activists? People who beat up husbands of agunot?

JoyInTheMorning

Fri, Sep 29 2017, 2:58 am

Squishy wrote:

I am sorry you went through this. When my close friend got divorced, DH similarly wanted me to disassociate myself for similar reasons. I am a grown-up and make my own choices, but I will always listen to his reasons. It turns out he isn't wrong; however, I choose to keep my friendship. Your LCSW friend was not operating on blind prejudice.

There is a social contagion. You are 75% more likely to divorce if a close friend is divorced. You are 39% more likely of a friend of a friend got divorced.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.....amp=1

Children of divorced parents experience a wide variety of negative behaviors. I do feel for those children, but my children come first. I take it on a case by case basis if I will discourage my children from associating with children of divorced parents because of social contagion.

If the child is eidel, then I am cautiously ok. If the child is angry, acting out, self destructive, pushing boundaries, then I am sorry, but friendships are discouraged; I only have one chance to raise these children.

I regularly have divorced people over my house. They can come with their kids. I take in an older child of divorced parents for Shabbos regularly. She is a fine girl. It is only close friendships with my children that I feel is not in my children's best interest.

http://www.children-and-divorc......html

1. The Pew study doesn't appear to even make an attempt at distinguishing between correlation and causation. There's evidence that divorce is more frequent among certain social networks, but I don't see any evidence that having a friend divorce causes someone to get divorced.

2. Even if there is a causal relation, there's no reason to think that it spreads along the friendship of the children. If you're worried about divorce spreading to you, just make sure that you don't become close friends with people who are divorced. (I am not recommending this, just pointing out that worry about "contagion" through the children seems odd.)

3. We do cost-benefit analysis all the time regarding things that would increase risk for adverse effects, such as taking your kids for long car trips during chol hamo'ed.. Why suddenly become so careful in this case?

33055

Fri, Sep 29 2017, 3:25 am

RebekahsMom wrote:

I agree with the bolded. The only reason I brought this up was because a poster mentioned her friend, a LCSW, made a painful decision not to be friends with her because divorce is contagious.

I made a different decision with my friend who was going through a divorce when DH mentioned that divorce is contiguous. My marriage is strong. My friendship with her is strong.

There are other factors which change the way the risk is spread out.

I say to DKLZ the LCSW. Perhaps she is an at risk marriage, didn't have any prophylactic factors, and made an informed decision.

33055

Fri, Sep 29 2017, 3:34 am

imasoftov wrote:

I didn't think of this. Therapists have a 24.2% divorce rate. The LCSW may have known this.

I didn't see agunot activists on the list.

Below is a list of divorce by professions.

http://lexfridman.com/divorce-.....sion/

33055

Fri, Sep 29 2017, 4:28 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

1. Let's just say it is a coincidence that one is more likely to divorce if in contact with a divorced person, then some might want to avoid the coincidence without being a wicked person. The LCSW should be exonerated.

2. OP had a concern about DC playing with a child from a divorced home. I agree this isn't one of the factors that should go into her decision.

Children from divorced homes may be perfectly lovely, and they may not be. I make the decision on a case by case basis with my own kids. DD is long term friends with a wonderful eidel girl from a divorced home. We love this girl and did so before, during, and after the divorce.

DD has a school mate whose parents were going through a divorce. She asked DD if She could come for Shabbos. The girl was a nightmare of a Shabbos guest criticising constantly and being rude. She treated her mother like garbage when she dropped her off and picked her up. She continued to criticise Shabbos in school and embarrass DD. When she asked again, I said no. I discussed this with one of her educators who was advocating for the visit. She was acting out because she was hurting. I pity the girl, but....

3. I agree with C/B analysis on social decisions. Perhaps LCSW said the threat to her marriage is not worth the friendship. I did one with both girls mentioned on 2. Although I pitied the second girl, shalom outweighed the pity. BH I have respectful teens. I don't tolerate that in my house and pitied DD having to endure the LH in school.