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amother

Lavender

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 3:50 am

There is a family we're close to, and spend a shabbos together every so often, usually part of the chag as well. I know some other families that spend time there as well.

A few months ago: we spent shabbos there. A few days later my daughter (8 years old) blurted out to me that SY (friend's 15 year old son) told her not to say anything to me...and asked her to show him her private area. promised her a treat. she said she was scared but she told him no, and he left it at that.
I was horrified, wasn't sure what to do in the moment. I praised dd for telling me about it, gave her a hug and told her I would take care of it.

I later went over to a therapist friend and told her the story.
She advised me to keep an eye on dd, but assuming she keeps up her normal beahviour, she's probably okay. She told me I must inform SY's parents, as well as tell them that we (my husband and I) would inform the other families that spend time there about this story.
That is what we did.

SY's parents were horrified as well.

We've kept up with them over the next few months. The husband spoke to my husband a few times, serious converstaions about how they're dealing with it. After back and forth, they decided not to talk to SY about it, but to send him to a professional in the guise of a tutor/mentor.
This person (I'm not sure what his profession is) claimed that SY seems to be a well-adjusted boy, he hasn't brought up this incident but can't really believe he would do something like that.

a few days ago SY's mother decided to tell him the story (not sure if this was advised by the mentor or her own decision).
SY denied it 100%. He would never ever etc. How disgusting. How dare we assume this about him. on and on and on. He claims to have an idea of how this might be a misunderstanding- my daughter was reading on the couch, and he told her to "take down her skirt" meaning she wasn't sitting in a tznius way, her skirt was up.

DH (who is the one who talks to them) is fully on board with this story. I am more sceptical. I told him there is no way to verify either storuy at this point, and I refuse to open it up to dd again , after all this happened months ago, and we haven't spoken about it since. What would be the point anyway?

Where do we go from here?
Do we go back to spending time with them? they usually have us over for part of sukkos, and the kids do enjoy going, and have been asking to go. It's hard to know what dd8 thinks. she seems fine but isn't very transparent with her feelings.
SY is majorly insulted. Do we try to make it up to him? Do we apologize?
SY's parents have told the other families that it was a misunderstanding. Do we go along with that ?

Abby2

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 4:34 am

Trust your child.
A 15 year old with an agenda can easily make up a convincing story when a lot is at stake.

I would not go there.

amother

Pewter

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 4:52 am

Don't go there your job is to protect your children it doesn't make sense that your daughter would make up such a thing I would definitely stay far away from them

amother

Plum

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 6:55 am

If his story was true he wouldn't tell her not to tell anyone

imasinger

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 6:59 am

You don't promise someone a treat for readjusting their skirt to be more tznius.

He's lying, but how you choose to approach the situation is up to you.

My suggestion would be to arrange that DD is with a family member at all times. And preferably not with the boy, except when everyone is together for the meal.

You most certainly don't owe him an apology. He owes you one.

amother

Lavender

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 7:03 am

amother wrote:

If his story was true he wouldn't tell her not to tell anyone

That is such a good point. I don't know how I didn't realize this.

amother

Lavender

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 7:09 am

imasinger wrote:

You're right about the treat thing, I didn't notice that.

I was starting to doubt myself for being so sure he's lying, but you've helped me strengthen myself. Thank you.

The only people I trust would be me and dh. that will be difficult, especially on sukkos when everyone is in and out of the house at all times. So I don't know if we can go at all. I don't want to involve dd8 in this - I don't want to tell her to stay away from him, or to stay near me, because I don't want to put the responsibility for this on her.

I had a thought - that since he knows we know about it, he won't dare try something again? Is that rational?

Iymnok

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 7:11 am

Maybe, or he'll just be more careful/sneaky.

amother

Brunette

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 7:19 am

amother wrote:

No, no. Don't go back regardless of which parent can keep an eye on her. You can't make this boy better and you can't force them to believe you over their son but you CAN and should believe and protect your daughter. Stay strong.
As was mentioned, he wouldn't have offered a treat and told not to tell if he just told her to readjust her skirt.
As it stands, a 15 year old boy doesn't normally tell 8 year old girls to readjust their skirts. Maybe a brother.
In addition, if you go back to the way things were, he will be emboldened to try it again with your daughter or someone else.

This whole situation stinks.

petiteruchy

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 7:35 am

Probably he won't, after all, he proved not to be so good at choosing a victim or manipulating her.

However, he absolutely did something... I can think of a million lies I told at that age when confronted with something embarrassing or stupid I'd done, and I had nothing to hide like that! A kid that age would absolutely have the wherewithal and skill to cover up such an accusation.

I don't think you should go again. A) it's clear he's lying and while I doubt he would try anything with your daughter, I doubt other kids are safe with him B) things will obviously be strained between the families and since they seem determined to treat it like a mistake, I wouldn't be able to speak to them normally C) I wouldn't want to give my tacit approval to this handling of potential abuse. Even though your daughter seems fine, I think that's partially because you believed her and immediately removed him from her presence. She might not have been so fine if you'd brushed it off and she'd had to spend a lot of time around him. And the people who they told it was a misunderstanding, why should they think differently when they see you at their house?

amother

Lavender

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 9:43 am

amother wrote:

I was trying to change some details to protect my privacy but I see that it doesn't make much sense this way.
The truth is, these are my in laws and the boy is my brother in law. He is my daughter's uncle, and from their relationship in the past, if her story would have been that he told her to adjust her skirt, I would have believed it. But that wasn't her story.

We've avoided going for shabbos for the past few months, and when we have had occasion to get together I was keeping an eye on my daughter every second.

I DO believe my daughter. Nothing has changed with that- I am sure 100% that every word she told me happened. The only doubt that crept in, was, is there a way to reconcile his excuses with her story.
And it seems pretty obvious to me that there is no way to reconcile it.

amother

Lavender

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 9:48 am

petiteruchy wrote:

Probably he won't, after all, he proved not to be so good at choosing a victim or manipulating her.

Yes, BH. I am so thankful she had the courage to refuse him , and to come tell me about it.

petiteruchy wrote:

However, he absolutely did something... I can think of a million lies I told at that age when confronted with something embarrassing or stupid I'd done, and I had nothing to hide like that! A kid that age would absolutely have the wherewithal and skill to cover up such an accusation.

I don't think you should go again. A) it's clear he's lying and while I doubt he would try anything with your daughter, I doubt other kids are safe with him B) things will obviously be strained between the families and since they seem determined to treat it like a mistake, I wouldn't be able to speak to them normally C) I wouldn't want to give my tacit approval to this handling of potential abuse. Even though your daughter seems fine, I think that's partially because you believed her and immediately removed him from her presence. She might not have been so fine if you'd brushed it off and she'd had to spend a lot of time around him. And the people who they told it was a misunderstanding, why should they think differently when they see you at their house?

Everything you say makes so much sense.
As I said, these are my in laws. and they didn't deny it at first- they believed us completely. They weren't looking to prove us wrong, just trying to get their son to open up and talk about it. and his denial was very convincing (apparently).
Even my husband thinks a mistake might have happened. Though I haven't spoken to him since I started this thread...

amother

Lavender

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 9:49 am

They've told the other married siblings that it was all a mistake.
Do I do something about that?

petiteruchy

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 10:00 am

You could tell them that given certain details that she told you, you aren't willing to believe it was a mistake on her part. While it might be more convenient to believe it was a misunderstanding, given what he has to lose, it's far more likely that he's covering up his actions than that she would misinterpret them.

simba

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 10:01 am

amother wrote:

They've told the other married siblings that it was all a mistake.
Do I do something about that?

Tell them the story. Let them make the decision as to who they want to trust their kids with.

grace413

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 10:15 am

So sorry you are going through this.

It's obvious that he is lying, just like almost every other 15 year old boy in his situation would do.

It's understandable that your husband doesn't want to believe bad stuff about his brother but your job (and your husband's) is to protect your daughter.

amother

cornflower

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 10:38 am

I had a very similar situation, and after speaking to someone my husband and I trusted, we decided to go back.
It was a huge mistake and we paid for it dearly.

It was an even more grey area than yours.

Please do your daughter the best thing you can ever do for her and don't let her be around this uncle or people who deny her reality. Meaning if any family decides to deny it and want to talk to her about it, do not let them. Don't let anyone try to "make shalom".

Cookiegirl

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 12:56 pm

OP (and any others who have concerns in this area), please read the current issue of Dialogue which covers CSA (Child S-x Abuse) in the "chareidi" community. It is available in sefarim stores. I don't see it online however. This is a critical issue and awareness and the way it's handled by parents and family is crucial for the successful recovery of victims, as well as getting help for perpetrators. Most CSA happens between family members, unfortunately.

dancingqueen

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 12:59 pm

This sounds really tough but please protect your dd op.

nechamashifra

Thu, Sep 28 2017, 1:03 pm

Going back there, even if you know he wouldn't do it again, would send the message to your daughter that you (her parents) do not take her seriously. More than that, going back there will confuse her and might make her second guess herself. She did the right thing: she went to you for safety when she felt that something was off. Show her that her instincts were right.

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