Spinoff: what's the line to determine teen abusers?

imasinger

Sat, Sep 30 2017, 9:42 pm

This is a spinoff from the "what do I do next" thread.

A poster said that a teenage boy who tried to bribe his younger niece into pulling down her skirt is an "abuser."

I have seen other threads like that on this board.

I am bothered by the harsh and lifelong labeling that can be applied to those teens who currently have little executive functioning and a lot of hormones.

What I want to know is, how many of them have an adult in their lives brave enough to explain the facts of life before there is an issue? Or after?

The majority of boys figure this out automatically. But there is some number who realized that they were not struck dead for accidentally turning on a light switch on Shabbos, and extrapolate that since everything to do with relations has been presented as taboo, it's all equally valid to explore.

They seem caught between the overly permissive secular culture, and a very repressive frum culture.

IMNSVHO, every parent should talk to their young teens. They should explain a little about shomer negia. But they should also davka make a point of explaining (especially to the boys) that touching or trying to touch or look at someone significantly younger or less powerful than them is really bad.

I think once they have an education, if they are scheming to touch younger people, you can start thinking about labels.

But until then, let's just call them impulsive, hormone driven, dumb teens.

And give them a chance to grow out of it.

OK, let the tomatoes descend.

amother

Ruby

Sat, Sep 30 2017, 9:46 pm

No tomatoes here, just want to say I feel similarly. I did not have an education about the legal aspect and ramifications. We teach our kids about gehenom yet we do not tell them about the legal system and how it works, what's considered a felony, misdemeanor, offense, crime , etc.

amother

Mint

Sat, Sep 30 2017, 9:52 pm

As someone who was abused by an older male sibling, not An attempt as in that thread I can tell you he as an adult is a wreckless zex addict and has lost a beautiful marraige to being dumb and impulsive so it isn't so simple.

Otoh, he is not a child predator, I was a child at the time and I was the subject of that addiction but I feel that my children today are safe around him.

imasinger

Sat, Sep 30 2017, 9:55 pm

Sequoia, I just read the plot summary, and I think I'll skip it. Ugh.

But what we're talking about here is teens coming up with their own bad behavior, not being pressured by malicious outsiders.

Mint, did anyone know what he did to you? Did anyone try to teach him?

Reckless, impulsive adults might have ADHD. Has that been ruled out?

Has he gotten therapy after he ruined his marriage?

And, perhaps more importantly, are YOU OK in the aftermath?

mommy3b2c

Sat, Sep 30 2017, 10:03 pm

Imasinger, I agree with your point. Another thing I noticed on that thread was the hysteria over what happened to the girl. Everyone was acting like she must be traumatized for life. I think that was a bit of an over reaction because nothing actually happened to her. She was smart enough to say no, and smart enough to tell her mother. And her mother was smart enough to believe her.

amother

Lime

Sat, Sep 30 2017, 10:03 pm

Imasinger your on target

I had a 13 year old relative do those stuff in my house. Bh my father caught it over time and took care of it. One of the things my father did was explain to him everything from how he feels and what it means to the other person. He became extremely erlich and years later he can't forgive himself for doing what he did. I don't harbor any bad feeling against him I understand he was young but the damage was done and I still suffer from it. But one thing my father learned from this experience every boy that turns 13 gets a full education.

amother

Mint

Sat, Sep 30 2017, 10:08 pm

imasinger wrote:

No one knew or taught him, hence he hit rock bottom himself. Yes, my parents were naive. It was preveleant in those days.

He has and had ADHD all his life, my parents dealt with that as he jumped from medication to therapists full time.

He went through a major transformation after he ruined his marraige and is BH re-married in a very healthy marraige..praying he knows better this time then to toss it for fleeting pleasure.

I am fine. No real trauma. I feel worse for him. I have a good marraige with normal ups and downs.,intimacy is the strongest part of it!

pause

Sat, Sep 30 2017, 10:23 pm

imasinger wrote:

I agree with you, as I mentioned on that thread.

amother

Bronze

Sat, Sep 30 2017, 10:46 pm

Someone in the field told me that abusers under 14 can get help and change their behavior, but that after 14 it's much harder and there's a greater chance that the person will go on to abuse others. (I recognize that I'm only passing on second hand information.)

amother

Lawngreen

Sun, Oct 01 2017, 5:38 am

I work in a dorm with tween/teen boys

Whenever there is exploration issue at home or in the dorm we always report and then they are referred to a clinic that specalizes in treating child/teen offenders.

Part of the issue is that once a pre-puberty child is exposed to certain material online the have an 80% chance of acting out on whatever is the most available object. Considering that here in Israel 70-80% of the population has been exposed to such material before the age of 9, this is a staggering number!

The clinic we use has a 95% success rate (as in no more offenses after treated tracked for 30 years). This is because once the children/teens get proper ed and understand what to do with urges and how to control them , MOST of them are fine.

When they are not treated some may grow out of it and some may turn into repeat offenders or SA.....

Anon to protect the privacy of where I work

imasinger

Sun, Oct 01 2017, 8:11 am

sirel wrote:

But should a healthy teenage boy have an innate attraction to a young girl?
why should he even need an explanation or warning?

It's not innate attraction to young girls that I think we're reading about here.

It's boys who maybe either weren't curious earlier in life, or are newly curious as hormones hit, and may be insecure or intimidated by girls closer in age. Who may be exposed to stuff online or elsewhere leading them to think that nobody will really mind.

Bronze, I looked a little, but couldn't see anything online with research about 14 being some kind of age which had any significance. I'd be curious to know where that tidbit came from.

Lawngreen, thank you, that's very interesting to read.

amother

Ivory

Sun, Oct 01 2017, 1:52 pm

I actually asked all of dh's siblings and/or their spouses to talk to their 10-12-year-old boys after I saw a group of my nephews acting inappropriately together (lying on top of each other, humping against each other, etc). These are innocent boys who were not exposed to anything inappropriate, but in their standard yeshivish upbringing, they never knew that boys aren't supposed to be doing certain things, and once one started, the others copied. I was happy that my own 10-year-old walked out on his own instead of joining his cousins' play, because otherwise I'm sure he would have decided that its fun or it feels good and may have tried it with his friends. Most young boys were not educated on appropriate and inappropriate behaviors, and that's how they end up in trouble. None of these kids are abusers; they're young and stupid.

amother

Indigo

Sun, Oct 01 2017, 1:53 pm

to imasinger:
why is important to blame our "overly repressive frum culture"?

The boy has a problem whether he is frum or not frum or Chinese American.or Waspy American.
The problem can be taken care of quietly, matter of factly without making him into a monster or the girl into a victim for life.
THATS ALL.

amother

Lawngreen

Sun, Oct 01 2017, 2:56 pm

sirel wrote:

But should a healthy teenage boy have an innate attraction to a young girl?
why should he even need an explanation or warning?

No he should not

But the reality of our sick world where children are exposed to TMI before the are developmentally ready for it runs the risk of objectifying EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING. We had a very young boy tell his pet hamster that he wants to stick his ..... in it.

The thing is if you catch it early enough and give them proper help they can go on to becoming perfectly normal adults. When things are not dealt with they run the risk of getting worse and becoming a full blown sickness....

imasoftov

Sun, Oct 01 2017, 3:02 pm

amother wrote:

Part of the issue is that once a pre-puberty child is exposed to certain material online the have an 80% chance of acting out on whatever is the most available object. Considering that here in Israel 70-80% of the population has been exposed to such material before the age of 9, this is a staggering number!

It seems that were both of those numbers to be accurate, more than 50% of children would "act out on whatever is the most available object".

amother

Lawngreen

Sun, Oct 01 2017, 3:31 pm

Sorry I left out the most important part - 80% will act out when there is weak parenting and/or a lack of education and clear boundaries of what is ok (m-sturbating for example) verses what is not ok (giving your sister a candy so you can touch her)

This is beside for all the kids who where m-les ted and go on to repeat the behavior - thats a whole different and more complex topic.

This is why we see a lot of it in the dorm - the children are coming from dysfunctional backgrounds to begin with....

Anyways....

If your kid saw p. get him help!!!!

imasoftov

Sun, Oct 01 2017, 3:58 pm

amother wrote:

In that case it's only children in similar dorming situations that don't send children to therapy after they've viewed [filth] where more than half of all students would be expected to "act out on whatever is the most available object".

I also have asked several times and will ask again for information about what field of therapy treats children for exposure to [filth] and what treatment it offers.