Kids want to make Aliyah

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Forum -> Inquiries & Offers -> Israel related Inquiries & Aliyah Questions

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LovesHashem

Mon, Oct 02 2017, 2:44 pm

water_bear88 wrote:

You can't pick the more right-wing option with kids that age and expect it to work.

I know a family that wanted to make aliyah. They slowly became more right wing in the USA over 2-3 years, and after the kids were adjusted, moved to Israel.

water_bear88

Mon, Oct 02 2017, 3:02 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

I know a family that wanted to make aliyah. They slowly became more right wing in the USA over 2-3 years, and after the kids were adjusted, moved to Israel.

That's wonderful that it worked for them, and makes sense to me statistically as roughly 1-2 kids (out of families with 3-6 kids) were the OTD ones in the families I'm thinking of. Generally, though, I think it's a bad mix with aliyah.

LovesHashem

Mon, Oct 02 2017, 4:19 pm

water_bear88 wrote:

I hear.... As someone who made aliyah myself I think it can be done.

water_bear88

Mon, Oct 02 2017, 4:25 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

I hear.... As someone who made aliyah myself I think it can be done.

I'll add that I'd guess it's also dependent on kids' personalities, and how much of a transition rightward we're talking about. Becoming a complete BT (starting from not shomer Shabbat), or even trying to move from MO, to chareidi- with kids old enough to feel the change- is where I've really seen it backfire. If a family started out yeshivish, both parents having grown up as such, maybe it's more likely to work.

DrMom

Mon, Oct 02 2017, 4:45 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

I'll tell you one thing, making aliyah comes with sacrifices. They say Eretz Yisroel only comes with hardships (to get there). In the begining it's hard. There were nights we didn't have food, gas, or electricty. There were schools that kicked me and my siblings out, rejected us. There was therapists, pain, frustration. Sometimes we didn't know where we were going to live, or when my parents would get a job...but we always knew Hashem would take care of us. We asked Daas Torah before coming, and we knew this is where he wanted us to be.

Other sacrafices, my father had to switch to black and white, as we were in between yeshivish and chareidi. We had to pick, so my parents chose chareidi. Suddenly we didn't go to movies anymore, play sports, we starting wearing tights, no nail polish, etc. There will be adjustments. Some people end up moving and they lower their observance, it's very sad to see. Anyways, ask Daas Torah

I just wanted to comment that most people I know had a much smoother aliyah transition than what you described.

Part of it may have to do with me being in the DL and not Charedi community. No major hashkafic changes are necessary in many communities. Nobody got kicked out of school. (!)

Also, most olim I know come with a financial plan, are financially stable, seek out employment beforehand on a pre-aliyah visit, etc.

You don't have to become a martyr to make aliyah. Just do some groundwork and planning.

heidi

Tue, Oct 03 2017, 1:18 am

DrMom wrote:

We made aliyah when my oldest started 7th grade. He was really really gung ho and I have to say that the guy is now a total Israeli (more than 10 years later)-- he never flinched from all the hard stuff like walking into a classroom knowing no one and not understanding a word.. My younger children took longer to adjust-- for the first year they went through almost like a personality change-- suddenly started fighting with each other, very whiny and needy-- of course I knew why, but it didn't make it easier. It took them several years to adjust-- I remember when my kid who made aliyah in 4th grade turned to me on Yom Haatzmaut in SEVENTH grade and said-- I finally am glad we made aliyah.
One thing that definitely helped was moving to a community where we didn't have to change our religious norms. If anything the community was more modern than we were used to so there were no pressures. Also, very very American neighborhood which definitely made for an easier adjustment. Also, husband came with a job-- that was my prerequisite for moving.

LovesHashem

Tue, Oct 03 2017, 3:31 am

DrMom wrote:

Most people I know are yeshivish. Any other types went down in ruchniyus when they moved.

grace413

Tue, Oct 03 2017, 3:46 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Most people I know are yeshivish. Any other types went down in ruchniyus when they moved.

Perhaps your acquaintances are limited or you a making a massive generalization.

mandksima

Tue, Oct 03 2017, 4:03 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Most people I know are yeshivish. Any other types went down in ruchniyus when they moved.

I haven't done a complete survey so I really can't say one way or another but this statement still hits an extreme sore point. If there is one thing we need to learn from the Sin of the Spies, it is lashon hara on EY is never ok (especially when it isn't even a given and can't be told as true, if not, it is rechilut, even worse) and we still have the positive mitzvah of yishuv EY even if we feel we could possibly be more religious somewhere else. The spies were tzaddikim who felt EY would be too hard physically for them and would take away from their ruchniot. They told Moshe (obviously Hashem too by their actions) that they didn't agree with Hashem and they obviously knew better what was better for their ruchniot in the long term. They ignored all of the holy benefits of being here and decided they couldn't risk going down in ruchniot. We know what came of all of that but why are we repeating the same nonsense? Ezra's time was a repeat as well. Why aren't we learning from this? The same exact situation is causing some to do yerida or others not to come at all.

I feel this offensive attitude is too prevalent and no one has learned the lesson. We are not allowed to say lashon hara on the Land. The truth is - the Torah and ruchniot that can be gained in EY far surpasses anywhere else and is on a totally different higher realm. There is no comparison. I can go on for pages about the countless brachot and miracles that have happened to our family alone just by breathing this holy air and asking Hashem for help at a place where one is listening to Hashem about where to live. One gets from EY what one puts in. There are valid reasons for one to leave EY TEMPORARILY or not come here at all (risk to life) but this is not one of them.

heidi

Tue, Oct 03 2017, 4:54 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Most people I know are yeshivish. Any other types went down in ruchniyus when they moved.

I think we can all agree that being daati leumi is a massive downturn in ruchniyus. Rolling Eyes

water_bear88

Tue, Oct 03 2017, 4:56 am

mandksima wrote:

I think the story of the spies is a very important one to this discussion. As I understand the p'sukim, the spies were sent to see the layout of the land and the type of people living there so they could best plan how to make aliyah work- where is the high ground? Where are there water supplies? What fruits grow where? Which areas are especially rainy and might be easier to conquer in the summer than the winter? Their mistake was in thinking it was up to them to advise whether or not to come at all.

I'll say that my observation has been that one of the most successful ways to make aliyah for families with kids over a certain age, when the kids really want to come, is one at a time as they finish high school or sometimes through Na'aleh in high school. A youngest child or even two can more easily make aliyah while still in middle/high school if they have siblings who've been here for a few years already and know the territory- they might be able to call up for help with homework, how their tzav rishon works, etc. It's less jarring when there are familiar adults who are already settled- and in the mean time, the older siblings will have come right after high school when it's easiest to come on your own.

That said, there are families at OP's stage who can do it- but it's trickier and needs very careful planning. I don't believe it's LH to try to help a family have as successful an aliyah as possible, even if that means waiting 5 or 10 years.

salt

Tue, Oct 03 2017, 7:00 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Most people I know are yeshivish. Any other types went down in ruchniyus when they moved.

Generalization alert!!

In addition to that, I would say that anyone who has made aliya (literally meaning "rise"/"going up") is going up in ruchniyut. Simply by living in Israel, you are on a higher ruchani level. But I know that's not what you mean. Just had to say it.

LovesHashem

Tue, Oct 03 2017, 7:51 am

salt wrote:

4

Sorry, I should of added that that doesn't mean there aren't other types that go up, this is just my expirience.

The mentality is very different from Israel to USA. You kinda need to redefine and truly prioritize what your hashkafah is here and where you fit in here BEFORE coming.

amother

Pearl

Tue, Oct 03 2017, 7:57 am

LovesHashem wrote:

You might well be unable to find your niche, unless you're willing to change not only your lifestyle but what you deeply believe. If you are yeshivish, and find that education is important, you may need to rethink your desire for education. That's hard, if you think this would actually be a problem. Same about what is tznius, what is kosher, what games are ok..

Mandskima, not all rabbis, by far, agree with you.

amother

Jetblack

Tue, Oct 03 2017, 8:11 am

Practically I could say that you guys missed the boat because once a kid is already 12 years old is very hard to change a language and an accent I've moved several times in my lifetime to several countries so I can tell you that. But todays theres bnos hadasah but it may not be your type.

chanchy123

Tue, Oct 03 2017, 1:21 pm

Ok, I haven't made Aliyah, but I grew up in one of those Anglo bubble communities and most of my peers were olim. Yes, most came when they were young (under ten) but quite a few kids in my neighborhood came as middle schoolers or even hihghscoolers. Most of them did fine, some probably still identify as olim. Yes, some went OTD, but so did other kids I grew up with who were not olim or came very young (I agree that divorce or other family strife played a major role). There are never any guarantees, and it is challenging but it's not a death sentence to their Yiddishkite. Don't write it off without at least considering it seriously.
I wonder if being DL does make it easier. Although I have yeshivish family members who came with teens and tweens and adjusted beautifully.
Anyhow you can be very ruchni and seriously religious and DL.

amother

Aquamarine

Tue, Oct 03 2017, 2:15 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

Most people I know are yeshivish. Any other types went down in ruchniyus when they moved.

I feel so sad that you don't know more of the amazing dati leumi and dati torani olim in Israel. As someone who is dati torani and and olah very much part of the dati leumi world, I love how strongly religious you can be here in what in America can sometimes be a much more modern world. One of the things I love about the dati leumi world in israel is that it's in on it's own spectrum separate from the chariedi spectrum and dati leumi it's own veryr right-wing (religiously, I mean, I'm not talking about politics) observant end of the spectrum (dati torani / Israeli chardal) and you can be still be dati leumi and be just as careful and observant as someone chareidi in observance, but with a different worldview. In America, growing up modern orthodox, when I wanted to be more religious, I always felt that the only option I had was to become yeshivish - that the more religious I became, the less I really fit in the non-yeshivish modern orthodox world, but I also felt that personally the yeshivish world was a bit too closed for me in some ways and never felt entirely comfortable there either. When I came to Israel, it was a breath of fresh air, because I could still have some of that openness I was looking for but be extremely observant as well. It's something so unique to Israel, and I've seen so many dati leumi olim do so amazingly here in terms of ruchniyus and observance, and they find communities that suit them and continue to grow. I hope you can meet more of the amazing people in the dati leumi world here who have no shortage of ruchniyus, observance, and love for torah and mitzvos.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Oct 03 2017, 2:27 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

1. I've lived here for too long. It's not just social reasons. Perhaps we did it originally for that, but it's hard to explain the way of life until you have expirienced it.

2. I never said OP or ANYONE would have to go thorugh what we went through. Eretz Yisroel is only attained through nisyonos It's not something I made up, I'm almost positive it's a POSUK in TANACH. I'm not sure what OP's nisyonos will be, but I am just sharing a sample of mine. I have yet to meet someone who came here and did not go through hard nisyonos. Of course if you do it with dass torah, stick here, you will atain the kedusha and bezrat hashem life will be good. But I'm not going to sugarcoat this. This idea is from tanach, and OP needs to know it WILL be hard. You may not have the exact nisyonos I had but there IS nisyonos.

Not everyone I knew had nisyonos in money like I described. There's all types....but it's not easy. We came to Israel with 2000 dollars and monthly stipends from nefesh binefesh. No job, no house, no furniture.

Another friend of mine who had many kids sold their silver leichter, and also came here with a few thousand dollars.

If you came with your family on Nefesh bnefesh, then you must be pretty young Smile

Also, Im extremely shocked the nbn would have endorsed a family to move to israel with not only not job but no money either. What is that? And no home or furniture? Im sorry but that, in my opinion, is just exceptionally bad planning Sad

If one is to move countries, and not just to israel, but to and from wherever, you have to do your own hishtadlut and make it work, but you have to make sure it makes sense too.

I came 15 years ago, single. I had a flat ready to rent, and a bit of savings to get me through at last 8 months. You cant just come on aliyah with a pocket of money and a dream (and maybe the hope that nbn will help with everything else). It doesnt work that way.

LovesHashem

Tue, Oct 03 2017, 2:31 pm

amother wrote:

I know many dati leumi people that are wonderful and spiritual and everything. Just...not olim.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Oct 03 2017, 2:34 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

this is true in the charedi world in Israel. As a dati leumi / MO person who made aliyah, I have not changed anything from the way I lived and practiced my judaism in the states than how I do it hear.

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