Kids want to make Aliyah

LovesHashem

Tue, Oct 03 2017, 2:35 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

If you came with your family on Nefesh bnefesh, then you must be pretty young Smile

Also, Im extremely shocked the nbn would have endorsed a family to move to israel with not only not job but no money either. What is that? And no home or furniture? Im sorry but that, in my opinion, is just exceptionally bad planning Sad

If one is to move countries, and not just to israel, but to and from wherever, you have to do your own hishtadlut and make it work, but you have to make sure it makes sense too.

I came 15 years ago, single. I had a flat ready to rent, and a bit of savings to get me through at last 8 months. You cant just come on aliyah with a pocket of money and a dream (and maybe the hope that nbn will help with everything else). It doesnt work that way.

NBN is all sugar and honey. They did provide us with money for the first year, but yes they sugarcoated a lot and also lied about many things. This was at the time of their "go north" campaign. Yeah....that didn't work out. They were just pushing their agenda and did not care what happened to us after, unfortunately.

They assured us my parents would have jobs in no time and they'd help us....yeah...no.
They also have merkaz klitas, places for olim to stay in until they find a house. We were there for a few weeks until we found a house.

water_bear88

Tue, Oct 03 2017, 2:37 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

If you came with your family on Nefesh bnefesh, then you must be pretty young Smile

Semi-winging it can work, just not with a family. I came with 3 suitcases on a NBN flight and stayed with friends for a few days until Sherut Leumi started. I had a whole year with no rent or transportation expenses to figure out what I'd do beyond that point.

amother

Aquamarine

Tue, Oct 03 2017, 2:44 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

I know many dati leumi people that are wonderful and spiritual and everything. Just...not olim.

Yes, that's why I'm sad. There are many dati leumi olim out there who are very observant and have a high level of ruchniyus. If you don't know any, you don't know any, that happens sometimes. Just make sure you know they are out there, even if outside the realm of your experience. I didn't want anyone to get the mistaken impression that if you make aliyah to the dati leumi world that you will go down in ruchniyus - the dati leumi world can be wonderful for your ruchniyus. Whether you go up or down is up to you. Whether your children go up or down is not up to you regardless of what country you live in, and having lived in both worlds in both America and Israel, I've seen just as many kid olim go off the derech from families of yeshivish/chareidi olim as from dati leumi olim. And I have seen so many more kid olim that stay on the derech in both worlds as well.

amother

Chocolate

Tue, Oct 03 2017, 3:29 pm

Well, to answer some posters questions, yes the kids have a love for Israel. We are zionistic. They go to zionistic schools, they are involved in bnei Akiva. They have a love for Hashem where ever they are. They have all been to Israel for "vacation". I don't know that their idea of "Israel" can be any more refined. It's the ultimate place to be. They are too young and immature to have a deeper understanding and all of the redefining oneself in Israel is something I haven't even considered.

We definitely wouldn't be looking to change from our hashgafah. That is, we are MO and very comfortable with that.

The idea of coming for a year is plausible. That might be the answer. It relieves the pressure of "making it work no matter what" situation and even if it's tough, the kids will know we'd be returning in a year. On the other hand, that's somewhat self defeating and the whole experience wouldn't be "making aliyah", it would be something different. I don't know quite what it would be. This option would use up our expendable savings for the meantime. We would definitely want to be in an area where there are Anglo olim.

yael212

Mon, Oct 30 2017, 4:44 am

amother wrote:

I feel so sad that you don't know more of the amazing dati leumi and dati torani olim in Israel. As someone who is dati torani and and olah very much part of the dati leumi world, I love how strongly religious you can be here in what in America can sometimes be a much more modern world. One of the things I love about the dati leumi world in israel is that it's in on it's own spectrum separate from the chariedi spectrum and dati leumi it's own veryr right-wing (religiously, I mean, I'm not talking about politics) observant end of the spectrum (dati torani / Israeli chardal) and you can be still be dati leumi and be just as careful and observant as someone chareidi in observance, but with a different worldview. In America, growing up modern orthodox, when I wanted to be more religious, I always felt that the only option I had was to become yeshivish - that the more religious I became, the less I really fit in the non-yeshivish modern orthodox world, but I also felt that personally the yeshivish world was a bit too closed for me in some ways and never felt entirely comfortable there either. When I came to Israel, it was a breath of fresh air, because I could still have some of that openness I was looking for but be extremely observant as well. It's something so unique to Israel, and I've seen so many dati leumi olim do so amazingly here in terms of ruchniyus and observance, and they find communities that suit them and continue to grow. I hope you can meet more of the amazing people in the dati leumi world here who have no shortage of ruchniyus, observance, and love for torah and mitzvos.

really? in a lot of ways I feel the opposite is true. while I agree that in israel you can be very modern and open and very observant I think there is more pressure in israel to look a certain way depending on what group you belong to. ex: we are DL-for a while I really wanted a sheitel-I just like the look more than a tichel-but my husband who grew up here would have been horrified because it is seen a thing that only haredim, black hat people do (and usually they are short and cheap and synthetic, I would want onethats human hair and long) whereas my cousin in NYC who went to Stern wears short sleeves and a sheitel, and her sister doesn't cover her hair at all and they all fit in seamlessly with the community. Here everything when it comes to what you wear-especailly how you cover-is a statement. Even in the DL world-whether you wrap the scarf around your head like a headband or cover it all which to me it's more of a style choice. Interestingly enough the DLs in Israel seem more accepting of pants-I have seen a woman cover her hair and also be wearing jeans.

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Oct 30 2017, 4:48 am

yael212 wrote:

I know many Dati Leumi women who wear wigs. I dont know what community you live in, but I know dati women, young and not so young, that wear wigs and its all accepted.

chanchy123

Mon, Oct 30 2017, 6:44 am

Yes, I also know quite a few DL women who wear wigs. It is very prevalent among my mother's generation, but quite a few younger women do to (my sister for instance). It is not super common, but not super obscure either.
As a rule nice sheitals are considered by many DL people less tsnius than other forms of hair covering, so many women and men are not so receptive of them (many people would consider a partial/minimal covering better than a really nice real hair wig).
Where I live many women wear pants and cover their hair, the rationale is that there is no prohibition on wearing pants, but hair covering for a married woman is halacha.
I agree that there is disparity in the DL community, and the way a person dresses does somewhat reflect a certain form of observance or practice - but I find that many communities are heterogeneous and you will be accepted regardless of your form of dress.

yael212

Mon, Oct 30 2017, 4:05 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I know many Dati Leumi women who wear wigs. I dont know what community you live in, but I know dati women, young and not so young, that wear wigs and its all accepted.

We live in Tel Aviv (not by choice, and are planning to relocate to Jerusalem in the next 2-3 years once his job contract is up), but we go to Jerusalem (my husband was born and raised there) very often for Shabbat. When we're there we like to attend the egalitarian minyan in Baka. We also go to Shira Hadasha sometimes but it's a bit far for us. I've also heard good things about the Klausner minyan in Arnona but we have yet to go. We are liberal DL-think Ravs Benny Lau, David Stav, Shlomo Riskin, we know many people who have graduated from schools like Hartman and Pelech or attended yeshivot like Maale Gilboa.

And hah! I am actually glad I'm wrong-I have serious sheitel envy. My husband just actually said when I told him about the reply to my post "I don't believe it. If it's true, they are very right wing and basically Haredi. If you can show me a DL woman who would set foot in a shul where a woman davens Kabbalat Shabbat I'll be convinced" He can have very strong opinions sometimes...

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Oct 30 2017, 4:13 pm

yael212 wrote:

OK, your husband obviously does not know the women myself and another poster said DO wear wigs. And NO, they are not basically haredi. I know some modern orthodox and dati leumi women, plain frum women, not bending toward haredi at all, that wear wigs.
I dont know those minyanim as I dont live in jerusalem, but maybe someone else will.

imasoftov

Mon, Oct 30 2017, 9:31 pm

yael212 wrote:

I'm confused by your husband's statement. In your first paragraph you say you go to Baka Shivyoni or Shira Hadasha, which seems to include him, and in your second he doubts that DL women go to a shul where a women leads Kabbalat Shabbat. Don't those same shuls have women leading Kabbalat Shabbat, and what sort of women does he see at them?

Or does he mean "no DL woman but a liberal DL one?" But can they be told apart by sight, or is this a no true Scotsman thing, any woman who goes to one of those shuls must be liberal DL?

salt

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 3:40 am

imasoftov wrote:

I was also confused by what she wrote, but I think she meant that he doubts that DL women would go to these shuls wearing a sheitel.