Frightened | Imamother

Bluesky 1

Mon, Oct 02 2017, 1:17 pm

I'm frightened too. And so. Are many people. Let's all say a kapitel tehillim now. To me it's very soothing. I think it's important to know more facts before we understand what happened here. I'm understanding his family is shocked but why didn't they speak more about him like his neighbors did?

Apparently his neighbors realized way more what an oddball he was. Without having much contact. His family knows something they are not saying. Tell me I'm wrong I really hope so.

His girlfriend is in another country? Also pretty weird, not sure what that means. She definitely knows. More then anyone.

I think that there is no real way to protect ourselves from such sick people. There always will be crazy ones. Hotels need better screening before entering their facilities

shoshanim999

Mon, Oct 02 2017, 1:50 pm

Bluesky 1 wrote:

So his neighbors knew he was a weirdo? His girlfriend lived in another country? No reason to investigate this guy. He had no history of violence on any level let alone this kind of mass murder. There is only so much man power the authorities have and can use to keep a close eye on the bad guys. Unfortunately, to a certain extent, this is not possible to prevent.

Miri7

Mon, Oct 02 2017, 1:59 pm

We need better gun control now. This has to end.

We cannot get rid of the crazy nut jobs who do this type of thing for political reasons or just because they're truly unstable. But we could do more to get guns off the streets, limit the types of guns available, impose greater restrictions on gun ownership, tougher penalties for possession of illegal firearms, tougher penalties for those who store their weapons in a manner allowing them to be stolen. We need to tighten up legal gun ownership and crack down on illegal guns.

While I don't think all of this will end mass shooting events, I do think we have to try to make it harder for bad actors to get their hands on and use these weapons that increase an individual's capacity to do so much harm so fast, so easily.

Bluesky 1

Mon, Oct 02 2017, 2:05 pm

I hear ya. On one hand you are right on the other hand he killed so many I would at least do a more thorough investigation. A lot more on his family and his lifestyle. Cause right now we know nothing and we need to do our utmost to try to prevent something like this again. I know there are crazy people. We can't prevent that. I really wonder about his mental status if that had anything to do here. He had no kids? He was a loner? Someone knows something about him that we don't. It will help us a lot to investigate

And yes Hashem is our ultimate protector. You also need to live your life. Be aware of your surroundings and hope and try to be positive that yes the world has good people. Look at all this first responders! And police and everyone that tried to help. The world still has a good measure of good and normal people. We need to remember that majority are ok. And that we can only control ourselves and our actions. The world is a better place because of people who are kind and this should be something more positive.

MagentaYenta

Mon, Oct 02 2017, 2:57 pm

Miri7 wrote:

Our president signed a bill earlier this year that made it easier for individuals with mental illness to legally purchase a gun. One must recognize that the cow is out of the barn. Anyone can go to the parking lot of a gun show and buy a gun with zero paperwork. They then can go online to purchase the material needed to convert a weapon to full auto. It no longer requires a cooperating gunsmith or a machine shop. As to skills as one poster mentioned, there are gun ranges all over where one can go to experience shooting a fully auto weapon or a large calibered weapon.

These are companion issues that have to be addressed if we are discussing gun ownership. And then there is that testy old 2 A.

I'm merely being a devil's advocate because it is quite a conundrum for me.

Last edited by MagentaYenta on Mon, Oct 02 2017, 3:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

MagentaYenta

Mon, Oct 02 2017, 3:02 pm

Bluesky 1 wrote:

Actually NPR has had a morning full of coverage. It was quite in depth, it included LE, the shooters family, victims observers and a great deal of coverage of public records on the shooter. There may be podcasts available since the coverage is just ending. You can also google other comprehensive coverage.

Fox

Mon, Oct 02 2017, 3:49 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

ITA with your general points.

If you're referring to the Obama-era ruling that was overturned last February, though, it's not quite that straightforward. The rule prevented anyone who received third-party assistance in managing government benefits because of mental impairment. The problem with the rule was a particularly loose definition of "mental impairment" and the risk that it could serve as the thin edge of the wedge to deny constitutional rights to anyone deemed "mentally impaired" on the basis of receiving assistance in managing finances. Among a huge list of groups opposing the rule were the ACLU and the American Association of People with Disabilities.

But in general, you're 100 percent correct: there are a lot of guns out there, and it's very easy for people to get their hands on them.

Also, as you say, gun control legislation tends to be like locking the barn door after the livestock has escaped, or at least preaching to the choir. It annoys the heck out of law-abilding gun-owners while those using guns for criminal purposes never say, "Oh, gosh! I was gonna mow down a group of people, but I can't use a modified semi-automatic in this state!"

I did the coursework for my concealed carry permit in Illinois, though I elected not to get it for the time being. I'm a surprisingly good shot, and I always keep my most recent target practice hanging in my office to encourage my kids to do their chores promptly. The hoops you have to jump through to get a CCP are enormous and there are only a handful of ranges in the Chicagoland area. In fact, for years, Chicago fought SCOTUS to effectively ban all guns.

Needless to say for anyone who follows the news, this has not reduced Chicago's homicide rate in the slightest. The macabre joke is that we don't need shooting ranges; we have the Southwest Side.

Raisin

Mon, Oct 02 2017, 5:06 pm

I think Fox is right, banning guns or restricting them will not prevent a lot of mass shooting. eg the drug/gang/criminal related shootings. But it would help prevent events like Sandy Hook. Those guns were legally acquired by a law abiding citizen.

I live in a country with very restrictive gun laws. Sure, there are criminals here and they get hold of guns and people get shot, although nothing like the scale of Chicago or other big american cities. (It sure helps when you don't have a history of enslaving people - no embittered, hopeless, poverty stuck descendants hanging around our inner cities) But no mass shootings.

SixOfWands

Mon, Oct 02 2017, 5:44 pm

People want to pretend that there's some guy in the basement machining zip guns that are used in crimes. That even if we restricted the legal sale of guns, that guy in the basement would keep making crime guns.

Well, guess what. That's not true.

Criminals get guns from straw purchase sales (eg, Columbine).

They get guns from unethical gun dealers, who need to be shut down.

And they get them from illegal, unlicensed dealers, who .... get them through straw purchases and from unethical dealers.

The Vegas shooter obtained his weapons legally.

Omar Mateen, the Orlando nightclub shooter, obtained his weapons legally.

James Hodgkinson, who shot up a Republican baseball practice, obtained his weapons legally.

In fact, according to a 2015 report, eighty-two percent of weapons involved in mass shootings over the last three decades have been bought legally.

So much for that guy in the basement.

And let's not forget the bullets. How many rounds of ammunition did Paddock have? Why would anyone need that much ammunition? Why are ammunition sales not limited?

My idea? First, we need a national gun policy. It doesn't help to have strict licensing in Illinois, if you can freely buy guns in Nevada. Next, licensing must include passing tests to demonstrate ability to safely handle a firearm, and that must be renewed every few years. Next, the firearm registration isn't permanent. Just like you need to renew your car registration, and show up to have it inspected, you need to bring your gun in every few years. If you sell it, the sale needs to be registered. Stiff penalties for violation. Next, there are dealers to whom a large number of guns used in crimes can be traced. Investigate and, if appropriate, shut them down. Finally, limit ammunition sales. If someone needs a lot of ammo for use at a gun range, let them purchase at the range, or have the ammo shipped directly to the range. And the limitations depend on the type of weapon. Hunters need access to ammo, but not unlimited, and they're not using handguns.

Fact is, we cannot stop all gun violence, particularly given the number of guns already available in the US. But we can reduce it. And that's a start.

Fox

Mon, Oct 02 2017, 6:17 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Next, licensing must include passing tests to demonstrate ability to safely handle a firearm, and that must be renewed every few years.

Next, the firearm registration isn't permanent. Just like you need to renew your car registration, and show up to have it inspected, you need to bring your gun in every few years. If you sell it, the sale needs to be registered.

These are the two best ideas, IMHO.

I can't speak for other states, but in IL, FOIDs and CCPs are valid for five or six years -- longer than a driver's license. I think the idea of licensing the gun itself as well as the person owning it is a reasonable idea.

One of the reasons I never did the final paperwork for my CCP is because I don't have the time to devote to practice, and I think it's incredibly irresponsible to own a gun unless you are legitimately able to practice at least once or twice a month.

Of course, the flip side of that is that a repressive government would know exactly who had the guns and where they were, and that's also kind of frightening.

iammom

Mon, Oct 02 2017, 7:15 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

I've been feeling this way for years already, but the Vegas attack elevated my feelings.
I'm downright frightened to be in public places, like the mall, playgrounds, etc. I know everything that happens is up to Hashem, but that doesn't take away my fear.
We are living in such frightening times!

It truly is frightening and heartbreaking and devastating.

As I was thinking about it over the day and saw some gruesome pictures (I had to stop) I realized how true it is that every bulletin has its destination.

It's scary to be in public places and I myself look over my shoulder a lot scanning people's faces and body language.

But we have to remember that you or I or anyone will not be hit unless HaShem wants it. Out of the thousands of people who were at the festival, those 60 or so people were unfortunately picked by HaShem to be hit. Some hundred or so people picked to be injured. And the rest picked to be ok physically but to carry the psychological scars.

I am by no means anywhere near where I should be in emunah but for me, when I see something like this, it's clear to me that HaShem had a plan for each person there.

groisamomma

Mon, Oct 02 2017, 9:59 pm

oliveoil wrote:

I'm frightened too. Frightened to live in a country where I can confidently predict that absolutely nothing will change after this.

If Sandy Hook didn't change anything, nothing will.

Until, perhaps, more than half the people in this country have been closely affected by gun violence. Then, maybe, things will change. But that's too many lives lost, and too many hearts shattered.

Off topic, Sandy Hook may not have changed the gun control laws but it caused enormous improvements to school security across the country. Speaking from the trenches, we can't prevent people from getting through the front door (short of installing metal detectors in every school), but we protect ourselves better by putting measures in place to prevent a tragedy as large-scale as Sandy Hook.

More to the point, let's be realistic. Crazy people will get hold of guns even if we make the laws tougher. My concern is whether tougher laws will make it harder for legitimate people that really need it to get hold of a firearm (women living in fear of their ex-partners, for example). Since we can't take guns away completely, and they are bound to get into the wrong hands sometimes, how can we prevent the tragedy from turning into a massacre on this scale? Indoor venues only? I mean, who would think someone would be shooting from 32 floors up? We can't anticipate every possible scenario.

Miri7

Mon, Oct 02 2017, 10:12 pm

chestnut wrote:

No (Ppl saying), but I haven't seen a source for obtaining that type of gun legally, either

Here you go. He reportedly had a number of guns in the hotel room with him, and I don't think we have clear information about which specific guns were used in the attack and how those specific weapons were acquired, but at least SOME of the guns he purchased legally, as detailed in the article below. Note the part at the bottom that says that we don't have complete information about how all the guns were obtained since the gun sale tracking data is stored on paper and microfilm (!):

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyl.....06921

It's very important in times like these that we don't jump to conclusions. Just because you haven't heard that the guns were purchased legally, does not mean that he purchased guns illegally.

As SixOfWands pointed out, a number of the perpetrators in these mass shootings did acquire their guns legally. I don't buy the argument that we shouldn't tighten gun laws just because doing so won't prevent all mass shootings, as illegal guns will still be around. That's like me saying to my doctor, well, I'm not going to exercise and eat a heart-healthy diet because I've still got a genetic predisposition for heart disease, and you can't guarantee that diet and exercise will prevent heart disease. Gee - even if it helps only some, should't I do the exercise and diet?

Or, wearing seat belts doesn't prevent death in all car accidents, so there's no point in using seat belts.