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MagentaYenta

Tue, Oct 03 2017, 11:31 pm

amother wrote:

I am a public school graduate and have kids in public now (Jewish school isn't equipped to deal with their needs). I have never seen that. My experience is much more like the previous amother. Because of allergies, food rules are much more respected now. Shabbat activities are not yet an issue, I think that would be much more significant in middle and high school. The secular curriculum is good, and they do not teach explicit s*x education in elementary school. I think they have learned a couple of Xmas songs, the more secular ones (think Jingle Bells, not O Holy Night) Halloween is a bigger deal than x-mas honestly since from a young child's point of view it's just about getting dressed up and asking for candy.

I have never seen 2nd graders having boyfriends. And statistically the average American teenager waits till they are nearly 17 ro have relations now, so no, not many 12 year olds are doing it.

I'll add to your post. I'm a PS grad, my children are and my grands as well. I've not experienced 'depravity'. I'm sure that in some schools you will have kids who are s-xually precocious regardless of their faith. And as in any school there are kids who follow the rules and kids that don't.

The schools my children went to all were highly ranked and rather progressive when it came to diversity and religious accommodations. I have no doubt that things may be very very different in other areas. What worked for my family may not work for everyones.

amother

Wine

Wed, Oct 04 2017, 12:40 am

amother wrote:

Alright, time to chime in with my opinion...

As someone raised in the secular world and having gone through public school until I left at the end of 11th grade, I can tell you that no savings in the world are worth putting a Jewish child into a public school -- especially one that is already frum.

I've been in multiple public schools due to family relocation, and in each and every one I have seen such depravity. I've had great teachers and a good education, but the nature of public school is to be very open and permissible to a fault.

In public school, it is NORMAL for children as young as 7 to have "boyfriends" and "girlfriends" and experiment with other-gender physical contact. By the age of 12 or 13, many children have already "done it." And yes, s-x ed IS about teaching exactly how the reproductive organs work, down to the very act of having children put condoms on bananas. Don't kid yourself by pretending that the secular world shelters children from a young age.
For even greater s-x ed, just walk the back hallways of any highschool. There you'll get a full education!

Nowadays, it's going to get even worse, with schools being required to promote same-gender relations as normal and accepted.

Now let's talk cruelty:
In public school, you have children coming many various backgrounds, often times gang backgrounds, in which they've learned that being the roughest, toughest is the way to succeed. Even the "better" kids often have a clic-ish mentality that looks down upon anyone not uber pretty, muscular or rich. Children have no problem to verbally abuse other kids on a daily basis. Of course, there are good kids too, but those are usually the ones that are being abused!

Ever heard of phasing? Just to give you an idea of what "accepted" mentality is the minds of many American teenagers. (This applies specifically to college, but teens know about this as well, and many have tried it.) In order to become part of the "in-crowd", wanna-bes have to go through phasing, which can be anything from having their heads submerged in a bucket of feces to eating live cochroaches. Yeah. These are the kids you might be sending your precious neshama to school with.

Not only that, but do you really expect a young Jewish child to NOT develop crushes on girls/boys they are in class with, regardless of religious affiliation? Taking a child out of a yeshiva to put them into public school to save money sends the child the message that Yiddishkeit is worth a certain price. Who said he can't put his own price on Yiddishkeit as well?
A pretty blonde girl that just happens to be Catholic... Well, you know, the price of love overcomes all...

My dear, daven, daven your heart out. Go knocking on doors and start collecting. Sell your jewelry. Get down on your knees and grovel with the administration, but don't take your kid out of yeshiva.

Take it from someone who knows.

And btw, the reason I left to get my GED at age 14 was due to the utter depravity I witnessed in public school. I didn't want to be in the environment anymore. And I wasn't yet religious.

Do you mean hazing LOL

Mommyg8

Wed, Oct 04 2017, 12:59 am

amother wrote:

I have never seen 2nd graders having boyfriends. And statistically the average American teenager waits till they are nearly 17 ro have relations now, so no, not many 12 year olds are doing it.

The last Atlantic Monthly magazine that I read - I canceled my subscription immediately after this article - discussed the issues confronting teens all across the US. One of the biggest issues is "s*xting" and/or girls sending pictures to their b/f's, who then pass them around to their friends. The article mentioned that this is so prevalent that the schools and police are at a loss as to how to deal with this. This is prevalent in every city, and town, in the US. This article also discussed other issues between teens - if I remember correctly, it was in this issue that I learned about "rainbow parties" - and, no, I am NOT going to explain that term.

The average age of relations may be 17, but this is referring to something specific, only. If you are ok with everything UP to that, that's your call.

Edit:
The Atlantic Monthly article I am referring to was November 2014. It is archived on their website. Only read this article if you are VERY sure you want to read about this.

Last edited by Mommyg8 on Wed, Oct 04 2017, 9:33 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Gray

Wed, Oct 04 2017, 1:27 am

Either amother has had the single worst luck with schools, or this is the worst scare tactic I’ve ever heard.

amother wrote:

Alright, time to chime in with my opinion...

In public school, it is NORMAL for children as young as 7 to have "boyfriends" and "girlfriends" and experiment with other-gender physical contact.

Experiment meaning what? Holding hands? Playing tag? Even if a child has a boyfriend, they’re certainly not old enough to cross the street without holding tatty’s hand to see that boy.

amother wrote:

By the age of 12 or 13, many children have already "done it."

No. They haven’t. The average first time age is 17. Not much before we’d marry. Please back that up with facts that prove it’s common, not newsworthy because it’s rare.

amother wrote:

And yes, s-x ed IS about teaching exactly how the reproductive organs work, down to the very act of having children put condoms on bananas.

I’ll give you that. At the high school level (I suggested public K-8), it’s possible. I didn’t, but my husband did (high school). NJ passed a law focusing on abstinence, but obviously they teach everything.

amother wrote:

...you have children coming many various backgrounds, often times gang backgrounds, in which they've learned that being the roughest, toughest is the way to succeed.

I’ve never met anyone from a gang background in any school/ job I’ve worked at. And that includes inner city Newark, where gangs constantly mark the streets. Whether they were taught at public/ private/ charter/ yeshiva. I pity the area you lived in.

amother wrote:

Ever heard of phasing? Just to give you an idea of what "accepted" mentality is the minds of many American teenagers.

Hazing? Can’t comment on that either. But it’s not a necessity. The majority of college students never face hazing. It’s almost strictly to join a fraternity/ occasionally sports team. And many who make the rules can be punished by anything from losing their sport or their fraternity, to being arrested.

amother wrote:

As someone raised in the secular world and having gone through public school until I left at the end of 11th grade...

And btw, the reason I left to get my GED at age 14 was due to the utter depravity I witnessed in public school.

That really is a tragedy. A kid smart enough to be in 11th grade at the age of 14 (typically 8-9th grade) deserves a much better education than the one you described.

Mommyg8

Wed, Oct 04 2017, 2:38 am

Quote:

No. They haven’t. The average first time age is 17. Not much before we’d marry. Please back that up with facts that prove it’s common, not newsworthy because it’s rare.

The definition of average means - in the middle. So half of kids their first time will be after 17, but also half, their first time will be before 17.

Also, when news sources mention "the first time" - they are only discussing teen-agers when they go "all the way". Anything up and until is not counted. And we're not even going to discuss [filth] - as it is so available today, even to teenagers.

amother

Denim

Wed, Oct 04 2017, 4:45 am

amother wrote:

That really is a tragedy. A kid smart enough to be in 11th grade at the age of 14 (typically 8-9th grade) deserves a much better education than the one you described.

I actually meant in 9th grade; that was an error.

Experiment meaning what? Holding hands? Playing tag? Even if a child has a boyfriend, they’re certainly not old enough to cross the street without holding tatty’s hand to see that boy.

Yes, holding hands, kissing, hugging. For Jewish children, that is not something we want even a seven year old doing with the opposite gender. Don't downplay it. It's still wrong.

No. They haven’t. The average first time age is 17. Not much before we’d marry. Please back that up with facts that prove it’s common, not newsworthy because it’s rare.

Absolutely. There are many. As another mother wrote, 17 is AVERAGE. I heard so many children talking about having done it. In fact, "virgin" was thrown about as an insult. There was one girl that I knew who was a staunch Baptist and she told everyone she would never even kiss a boy before marriage. She was held as the oddity in school.

I've never met anyone from a gang background in any school/ job ’ve worked at. And that includes inner city Newark, where gangs constantly mark the streets. Whether they were taught at public/ private/ charter/ yeshiva. pity the area you lived in.

I've lived all over, from hick towns on the west coast to northern states, to inner city Denver. And yes, in Denver, kids would show up to school with one pant leg rolled up, one down, and walk with a swagger. The color red was even banned in our school because one gang called themselves "the bloods," and there were gang fights breaking out in school. Alternatively, I've been in super high class schools and Gifted and Talented programs. In one of them, in the seventh grade, the teacher had a whole discussion with the class about how p*rn is demeaning to women and he would never watch it. I had NO CLUE what that even meant. Seems everyone else did though...

And again, with hazing, etc., the point I was trying to bring out is that these people are not being raised with concepts like ahavas chesed, avoiding lashon hara, etc. It is a cold, cruel world. I remember when someone new walked into class for the first time and one of the popular kids looked and said, "Hey, you're sh*tty looking." That's common talk in public school. No concern at all for others' feelings. It's just not a part of the "chinuch."

A Jewish child, who we assume is hoped to grow into a loving, caring, mitzvah-doing individual, will face incredible challenges in public school; everything from s*xual temptation to challenges with kashrus, yom tov, middos development and beyond. Why would any child in this generation want to hang tight to Yiddishkeit after being tempted in so many areas with the haskama of his own parents? If a parents sends a child to public school, it is essentially as if they are saying, "it's okay to be exposed to all these things." Some kids will remain strong, but I venture to guess that most won't, when faced with the combination of temptation of the "forbidden" and the nature of a child to want to explore his world as well as be part of his peers.

Sending a frum child to public school is placing a stumble block before him. A huge one. And then telling him to climb over it and become a great Yid despite the tremendous effort involved.

amother

Black

Wed, Oct 04 2017, 6:11 am

I'm not saying all public schools are wonderful, because they're not, just as not all Yeshivas have the best education and influences. Op, there are many wonderful public schools, and if you do your hw, your kids can get a very good education with a very low risk of exposure to things like gang activity. That being said, there will be outside influences (some more concerning than others) because it is public school in the real world. Obviously it will be challenging for children used to an insular yeshiva experience, but it could also be a growth experience.

amother

Bisque

Wed, Oct 04 2017, 7:20 am

amother wrote:

This was not my experience at all. I already posted. I only went in 9th grade and switched back out. I can only talk about high schools. It had nothing to do with friend choices. The rampant talk of sx and boy/girls stuff was too much. On the bus, at recess. Always. Yes, if I stayed, I would have caved. I did have a crush. He was cute and sweet and would never push me. But for 4 years, forget it, I would cave. My closest friend's father worked for a frum jew and had tremwndous respect for jews. She was so good to me and never made me feel alone. But I still felt alone. Even with the best kids in school as friends and teachers who went out of their way for me. I was lonely. No one could relate to me. I had a really lonly hard time. Teen years are already hard. This was over the top for me. I'm a sensitive person. Again, I live oot not in ny. And the other frum kids in the school, the parents thought their kids were getting through it so well, but, they didn't see what I saw them do on the bus. Again, this is oot high school not ny and not elementary. So idk what goes on there.

amother

Gray

Wed, Oct 04 2017, 7:43 am

I’ll be honest, at risk of exposing myself- I did public in a fairly Frum town for K-8. A lot of kids stopped before high school. Got out before many of the sx experiences that some have discussed. I have special needs kids. They’ve needed speech/ OT/ PT, and extra teachers. B”H they are not as needy as they were, and one needs nothing anymore. But yeshivas aren’t equipped to handle those needs.

The most important issue is finding a good school, no gang activity, good curriculum, a way to keep in touch with some nice Frum girls that can make sure yours stays true to her beliefs.

LovesHashem

Wed, Oct 04 2017, 8:03 am

I'm yeshivish, but public school would be out of the question!!! Even in Bais Yaackov high school girls had crushes, talked about tv shows, had body issues etc. Here are a few reasons why:

s*xting
non kosher food
liberal agenda (curriculum about LBTQ)
drinking
movies
lack of morals
body issues/body shaming
smartphones
holidays

Yes I know there's drinking problems in BYs, and tons of other issues. But in public school these things aren't issues, they are the norm. In BY it's very clear what is ok and the norm and what isn't.

DrMom

Wed, Oct 04 2017, 8:58 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Quote:

No. They haven’t. The average first time age is 17. Not much before we’d marry. Please back that up with facts that prove it’s common, not newsworthy because it’s rare.

The definition of average means - in the middle. So half of kids their first time will be after 17, but [b]also half, their first time will be before 17[/b].

Also, when news sources mention "the first time" - they are only discussing teen-agers when they go "all the way". Anything up and until is not counted. And we're not even going to discuss [filth] - as it is so available today, even to teenagers.

Actually, that's what MEDIAN means, not AVERAGE.

Anyhow, as public school graduate, there are cliques and groups in public school (as I imagine there are in any school), and some are sxually active and some are studious and never go out and some are jocks and some are music geeks, and some belong to various groups, etc etc etc. It depends with what kinds of kids your child hangs out.

Mommyg8

Wed, Oct 04 2017, 9:17 am

DrMom wrote:

Actually, that's what MEDIAN means, not AVERAGE.

No.

MEDIAN - 2,3,4,5,6,7 = 4+5/2 = 4.5

MEAN - 2+3+4+5+6+7 = 27/6 = 4.5

Which mathematical formula do you use to get AVERAGE?

Mommyg8

Wed, Oct 04 2017, 9:21 am

In any case, I know google says that the average age is 17. From where does google get their data? How valid was this survey? Did this data come from a poll-like site - I.e. - click on this simple questionaire to enter into this drawing? Was this self-reporting data? (Obviously, kids will lie).

The number 17 is completely unbelievable.

DrMom

Wed, Oct 04 2017, 9:55 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

No.

MEDIAN - 2,3,4,5,6,7 = 4+5/2 = 4.5

MEAN - 2+3+4+5+6+7 = 27/6 = 4.5

Which mathematical formula do you use to get AVERAGE?

The second formula is the calculation of the mean or average. (Sum divided by N).

The median is the midpoint in your distribution. In the case you showed, the mean and median are identical. But in the case of (0,0,0,0,100), the MEAN (or average) = 100/5 = 20, whereas the MEDIAN = 0.

https://www.vocabulary.com/art.....rage/

amother

Floralwhite

Wed, Oct 04 2017, 10:01 am

My husband went to a non Jewish all boys private school for High school and was miserable socially. There were (many) Jewish kids in his school but none from as a frum a home as him (he was the only one in a kippa). He doesn't have a single friend from there.

As I said, (and other posters are making a similar point) high school and possibly middle school is very different to elementary. I think a frum kid might be very happy in public elementary school but not later.

I think nowadays with social media and smartphones there are also a lot more issues that exist then ten or twenty years ago. .

Wed, Oct 04 2017, 10:08 am

Another PS grad here. Public schools vary tremendously, and the way individual kids react to different situations varies as well. Best to try to find information about the specific school you are considering, and talk with your own kids about it, rather than getting general opinions from imamothers with their own agendas.

Mommyg8

Wed, Oct 04 2017, 10:22 am

DrMom wrote:

Correct. This is where the VARIANCE/STANDARD DEVIATION comes in. What is the variance in this study? Do you know? Generally, if there is a large enough data pool, there is a standard deviation that can be calculated according to the naturally occuring bell shape. If this data is not bell shaped, then you would have to calculate this information using other methods.

The study did not quote methodology, so I'm assuming they used the mean, which as you pointed out, is generally, although not always, more accurate. Whether they used the mean or the median, there will obviously be some above that number, and some below. I was just pointing out the probability, according the study itself, that approximately half fall below the average.

I was also questioning the validity of the numbers - how was this study conducted, etc.?

Edit: Sorry, I was in a rush and missed the first sentence. Yes, the average usually means the mean - that is true, that is what is usually used to calculate the average. Since "average" in this article was not a scientific term, it is not 100% clear that they used the mean to calculate these numbers. Some studies do use median, if that would get a more accurate result. But even the mean is usually, although not always, the midpoint. For example, in the standard bell curve the median and average would be the same.

Your example of 0,0,0,0,100 would have to be a very, very small sample, and would probably have zero validity. I would imagine it would raise a lot of red flags.

Presumably, in this study (if there was one), no-one was 0, and no-one was 100. Presumably the numbers would be very closely clustered around 17, with any numbers too low or too high being extremely rare, hence would have very little influence on the final numbers, if the group is large enough, which, again, it would have to be to have any validity.

Last edited by Mommyg8 on Wed, Oct 04 2017, 11:11 am; edited 3 times in total

amother

Olive

Wed, Oct 04 2017, 10:30 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

I can assure you that this has happened at Jewish schools as well. There was a very well-known incident a few years ago. I'm not going to refer to location or to any details, as I hope that the young woman has been able to move on. But if you were a parent of a teen at that time, you knew about it.

Mommyg8

Wed, Oct 04 2017, 10:33 am

I understand that this happened in the Jewish schools as well. Unfortunately.

But in the public schools this is considered standard and normal (I.e. it's literally everybody), hopefully in the Jewish schools it is not considered normal, and is not AS prevalent.

Mommyg8

Wed, Oct 04 2017, 10:36 am

cm wrote:

I agree. I do know people who had to send to public schools for various reasons. I understand that this is sometimes the better option for some parents, and I know that everything is not always equal everywhere.

My guess would be that public schools in more affluent areas would be better organized and better run than schools from a poor district. But that is just a guess on my part - it would be a good idea to do your research.

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