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-> Interesting Discussions
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amother
Tan
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 Sun, Oct 08 2017, 5:15 pm
| chicco wrote: | | While there is "learning for the sake of learning," a person who doesn't have derech eretz is obviously not learning anything. If the Torah being learned has no affect on the learner, they are "learning" wrong. Reading words and memorizing isn't learning. |
Just because someone has a bad middah that they can be trying really hard to work on doesnt mean their learning is worthless it means they have to work even harder on their middos
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marina
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Sun, Oct 08 2017, 5:26 pm
| amother wrote: | | Just because someone has a bad middah that they can be trying really hard to work on doesnt mean their learning is worthless it means they have to work even harder on their middos |
Ok, maybe I spoke too harshly. I think I was just irritated by the way the original question was worded as if all the other commandments are so so much less important than learning, when really it is the other way around.
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PurpleandGold
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Sun, Oct 08 2017, 5:50 pm
| PinkFridge wrote: | I think you're both right.
Of course ain hamidrash ha'ikar elah hamaaseh.
OTOH, there IS value in Torah learning for the sake of learning. But if someone is an absolute baal no middos at all, his learning is not worth much. Because middos is part and parcel of the "maaseh." |
With great respect for all the points you made, please allow me to explain why I continue to disagree. The statement I was refuting was that "Torah learning means nothing without...". I would also like to refute that " if a person is not a baal middos his learning isnt worth much.". Torah learning, on a purely spiritual level, has intrinsic value, regardless of the character of the person learning it.
If a person was a cruel person, like the Melech Menashe from the tekufas haniviim, or an apikores, like Elisha Ben Abuye from the tekufas hatanaim, his Torah learning still has value and purpose, and he will be rewarded, regardless if his character is influenced by his learning. As evidenced in the stories of Menashe's miraculous salvation from being burned alive and Acher's ability to learn with the great Tanaim of his generation, the tefillah and Torah learning of every human being, noatter his deeds, has rippling influence on the entire creation, and has singular value.
Of course the ideal is a Talmid Chacham who is simultaneously a tzadik, with actions that sing of his learning. Of course what every person learning Torah should strive for is concepts like " Ain hamedrash ikkar..." and "derech eretz kadmah l' Torah". But this does not negate the impact of Torah learning by ANYONE, regardless of his deeds. Torah is comprised of the sacred letters of the aleph-bes, the spiritual DNA of creation, and when Torah is learned the letters form spiritual codes which renew the life force of the world, enacting the cycles of nature on which the universe depends. And this takes place when anyone learns, even a rasha.
Is Torah of greater value from a person with refined character? Of course. But it does have intrinsic value, even from a morally bankrupt person. This might not feel good to hear, but the the second section of Nefesh Hachaim is devoted to this concept, and another interesting place to look would be mefarshim on the words " V'salmud Torah k'neged kulam."
Last edited by PurpleandGold on Sun, Oct 08 2017, 5:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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r_ch
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Sun, Oct 08 2017, 5:55 pm
| marina wrote: | | Ok, maybe I spoke too harshly. I think I was just irritated by the way the original question was worded as if all the other commandments are so so much less important than learning, when really it is the other way around. |
But please don't forget that derech eretz is not something a person thinks up to himself and is being kind to others, but a code of laws based on the Torah. What I'm trying to say is, without learning there's no way to be kind to others the Torah way.
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marina
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Sun, Oct 08 2017, 10:23 pm
| r_ch wrote: | | But please don't forget that derech eretz is not something a person thinks up to himself and is being kind to others, but a code of laws based on the Torah. What I'm trying to say is, without learning there's no way to be kind to others the Torah way. |
I don't think I agree with this. I think many people are kind and good people in the eyes of God and they have never heard of the Torah.
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sequoia
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Sun, Oct 08 2017, 10:52 pm
| PurpleandGold wrote: | With great respect for all the points you made, please allow me to explain why I continue to disagree. The statement I was refuting was that "Torah learning means nothing without...". I would also like to refute that " if a person is not a baal middos his learning isnt worth much.". Torah learning, on a purely spiritual level, has intrinsic value, regardless of the character of the person learning it.
If a person was a cruel person, like the Melech Menashe from the tekufas haniviim, or an apikores, like Elisha Ben Abuye from the tekufas hatanaim, his Torah learning still has value and purpose, and he will be rewarded, regardless if his character is influenced by his learning. As evidenced in the stories of Menashe's miraculous salvation from being burned alive and Acher's ability to learn with the great Tanaim of his generation, the tefillah and Torah learning of every human being, noatter his deeds, has rippling influence on the entire creation, and has singular value.
Of course the ideal is a Talmid Chacham who is simultaneously a tzadik, with actions that sing of his learning. Of course what every person learning Torah should strive for is concepts like " Ain hamedrash ikkar..." and "derech eretz kadmah l' Torah". But this does not negate the impact of Torah learning by ANYONE, regardless of his deeds. Torah is comprised of the sacred letters of the aleph-bes, the spiritual DNA of creation, and when Torah is learned the letters form spiritual codes which renew the life force of the world, enacting the cycles of nature on which the universe depends. And this takes place when anyone learns, even a rasha.
Is Torah of greater value from a person with refined character? Of course. But it does have intrinsic value, even from a morally bankrupt person. This might not feel good to hear, but the the second section of Nefesh Hachaim is devoted to this concept, and another interesting place to look would be mefarshim on the words " V'salmud Torah k'neged kulam." |
Wait, so if someone beat his wife for many, many years, and finally killed her, even then his torah learning is a positive thing and he will be rewarded?
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amother
Burlywood
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Sun, Oct 08 2017, 11:06 pm
my husband has adhd or a learning disability and never passed a written test. He basicly keeps a shiur with a talmid chochom whom he gives a weekly stipend.
I, on the other hand love learning. My father calls me his talmid chochom. I read seforim on
torah, nach, mussar, halacha etc. I learned from all this that a person is given the personality and traits to fulfill his destiny. It is not my business if my husband NEVER opens a sefer. He is a yiras shamayim and does mitzvos like paying his workers on time and supporting divorcees and people who are in debt. He is kind to every person he meets. He is very careful to live his life according to halacha. I think it is silly when women are obsessed with their husbands torah learning when they dont follow the the train of thought of mesillas yesharim, chovos halvovas shla hakadosh etc.
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PurpleandGold
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Sun, Oct 08 2017, 11:08 pm
| sequoia wrote: | | Wait, so if someone beat his wife for many, many years, and finally killed her, even then his torah learning is a positive thing and he will be rewarded? |
Perfection of schar v'onesh is one of the Thirteen Principles of our faith according to the Rambam. Torah learning, along with any mitzvah, will be rewarded, as surely as any misdeed will be punished.
But that is not really the concept I was bringing out in my post - rather that Torah learning is intrinsically valuable to the world, regardless of the spiritual/moral level of the one learning.
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amother
Burlywood
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Sun, Oct 08 2017, 11:20 pm
| PurpleandGold wrote: | With great respect for all the points you made, please allow me to explain why I continue to disagree. The statement I was refuting was that "Torah learning means nothing without...". I would also like to refute that " if a person is not a baal middos his learning isnt worth much.". Torah learning, on a purely spiritual level, has intrinsic value, regardless of the character of the person learning it.
If a person was a cruel person, like the Melech Menashe from the tekufas haniviim, or an apikores, like Elisha Ben Abuye from the tekufas hatanaim, his Torah learning still has value and purpose, and he will be rewarded, regardless if his character is influenced by his learning. As evidenced in the stories of Menashe's miraculous salvation from being burned alive and Acher's ability to learn with the great Tanaim of his generation, the tefillah and Torah learning of every human being, noatter his deeds, has rippling influence on the entire creation, and has singular value.
Of course the ideal is a Talmid Chacham who is simultaneously a tzadik, with actions that sing of his learning. Of course what every person learning Torah should strive for is concepts like " Ain hamedrash ikkar..." and "derech eretz kadmah l' Torah". But this does not negate the impact of Torah learning by ANYONE, regardless of his deeds. Torah is comprised of the sacred letters of the aleph-bes, the spiritual DNA of creation, and when Torah is learned the letters form spiritual codes which renew the life force of the world, enacting the cycles of nature on which the universe depends. And this takes place when anyone learns, even a rasha.
Is Torah of greater value from a person with refined character? Of course. But it does have intrinsic value, even from a morally bankrupt person. This might not feel good to hear, but the the second section of Nefesh Hachaim is devoted to this concept, and another interesting place to look would be mefarshim on the words " V'salmud Torah k'neged kulam." |
People who learn and are not kind cause a chillul hashem amongst their own frum people and people to be disenchanted with yiddishkeit!
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amother
Ruby
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Sun, Oct 08 2017, 11:20 pm
| amother wrote: | my husband has adhd or a learning disability and never passed a written test. He basicly keeps a shiur with a talmid chochom whom he gives a weekly stipend.
I, on the other hand love learning. My father calls me his talmid chochom. I read seforim on
torah, nach, mussar, halacha etc. I learned from all this that a person is given the personality and traits to fulfill his destiny. It is not my business if my husband NEVER opens a sefer. He is a yiras shamayim and does mitzvos like paying his workers on time and supporting divorcees and people who are in debt. He is kind to every person he meets. He is very careful to live his life according to halacha. I think it is silly when women are obsessed with their husbands torah learning when they dont follow the the train of thought of mesillas yesharim, chovos halvovas shla hakadosh etc. |
You sound like a fantastic person and wife, but how exactly does this fit the conversation? Who said women anything about whether women should be "so into their husband's learning?". The conversation is about the reward for Torah learning vs other mitzvos. Not whether women should push their husbands to learn.
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PurpleandGold
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Sun, Oct 08 2017, 11:25 pm
| amother wrote: | | People who learn and are not kind cause a chillul hashem amongst their own frum people and people to be disenchanted with yiddishkeit! |
True, but their learning still has intrinsic value. One valid point does not refute the other.
Please understand that this concept comes from Rav Chaim Volozhener, chief disciple of the Vilna Gaon. It is not a representation of my feeling about people who learn Torah and behave poorly. It is just another example of mans ability to impact his world, regardless of spiritual level.
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amother
Tan
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Mon, Oct 09 2017, 1:18 am
| sequoia wrote: | | Wait, so if someone beat his wife for many, many years, and finally killed her, even then his torah learning is a positive thing and he will be rewarded? |
he will be rewarded for his torah learning and punished for the rest. one doesnt cancel out the other.
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Mommyg8
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Mon, Oct 09 2017, 1:41 am
| amother wrote: | | he will be rewarded for his torah learning and punished for the rest. one doesnt cancel out the other. |
I honestly don't think so!!!!
In fact, it may be the opposite - this may be such a huge chillul hashem that it may more than cancel out his Torah learning, when people say - look at someone who is a talmud chochom and this is what he does!
May I remind you ladies that Korach was a tremendous talmid chacham...
Acheyr...
Menasheh, I think...
Being a talmid chochom does not seem to give you a free pass to do whatever you want, and a person can chas v'sholom lose his olom haboh as well.
OTOH...
I remember reading in a sefer written by the Vilna Goan, that someone who has good middos but is not a talmid chochom, is like a pig who is walking around in gold jewelry... very harsh words, but you do have to understand the supremacy of Talmud Torah.
I don't like quoting stuff I read on the internet, but I did find a beautiful explanation of Shma by the Sifri - he says that How do we love Hashem? The way to love someone is to know them well (as we see in the chumash in Braishis), and how do we know Hashem well? By learning Torah. http://www.shemayisrael.com/pa.....1.htm
Three things uphold the world... those of us in the Yeshivish world have chosen to focus on Torah learning. Torah learning quite literally holds up the world, both literally and figuratively.
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amother
Tan
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Mon, Oct 09 2017, 1:47 am
| Mommyg8 wrote: | I honestly don't think so!!!!
In fact, it may be the opposite - this may be such a huge chillul hashem that it may more than cancel out his Torah learning, when people say - look at someone who is a talmud chochom and this is what he does!
May I remind you ladies that Korach was a tremendous talmid chacham...
Acheyr...
Menasheh, I think...
Being a talmid chochom does not seem to give you a free pass to do whatever you want, and a person can chas v'sholom lose his olom haboh as well.
OTOH...
I remember reading in a sefer written by the Vilna Goan, that someone who has good middos but is not a talmid chochom, is like a pig who is walking around in gold jewelry... very harsh words, but you do have to understand the supremacy of Talmud Torah.
I don't like quoting stuff I read on the internet, but I did find a beautiful explanation of Shma by the Sifri - he says that How do we love Hashem? The way to love someone is to know them well (as we see in the chumash in Braishis), and how do we know Hashem well? By learning Torah. http://www.shemayisrael.com/pa.....1.htm
Three things uphold the world... those of us in the Yeshivish world have chosen to focus on Torah learning. Torah learning quite literally holds up the world, both literally and figuratively. |
of course not, and a talmid chacham might be judged to a higher standard so if he sins his punishment might be greater then the non talmid chacham however, he will still get schar for his learning even if his punishment for sins is greater
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Mommyg8
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Mon, Oct 09 2017, 1:52 am
| amother wrote: | | of course not, and a talmid chacham might be judged to a higher standard so if he sins his punishment might be greater then the non talmid chacham however, he will still get schar for his learning even if his punishment for sins is greater |
Yes, but it seems that there are some things that are just non-negotiable...
But I do have to say, that almost everyone I know who learns all day has refined middos as well. There are the exceptions, as there is no automatic guarantees in life, but that's what I see, overall.
They're more ehrlich, more refined, and in general, nicer people.
Off the topic, but I always wondered about Eisav. It seems that until they were 13 Yaakov and Eisav were indistinguishable... they had the same upbringing, and I'm sure that Yitzchok and Rivkah made sure that Eisav learned Torah! Or whatever they learned then... So, there you go, the first one who learns, but doesn't practice what he learns...
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Seas
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Mon, Oct 09 2017, 6:26 am
| Mommyg8 wrote: | Yes, but it seems that there are some things that are just non-negotiable...
But I do have to say, that almost everyone I know who learns all day has refined middos as well. There are the exceptions, as there is no automatic guarantees in life, but that's what I see, overall.
They're more ehrlich, more refined, and in general, nicer people.
Off the topic, but I always wondered about Eisav. It seems that until they were 13 Yaakov and Eisav were indistinguishable... they had the same upbringing, and I'm sure that Yitzchok and Rivkah made sure that Eisav learned Torah! Or whatever they learned then... So, there you go, the first one who learns, but doesn't practice what he learns... |
Rashi doesn't say that Yaakov and Eisov were indistinguishable, only that people excused the latter's behavior due to his age. Once he came of age and still displayed his previous wickedness, it was clear they were on totally different paths.
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Ruchel
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Mon, Oct 09 2017, 6:42 am
| amother wrote: | | of course not, and a talmid chacham might be judged to a higher standard so if he sins his punishment might be greater then the non talmid chacham however, he will still get schar for his learning even if his punishment for sins is greater |
Like the bas Cohen in the Gmara. Yup.
I also think that since women don't need to learn, if they do (not instead of shabbes and all like the reform) they have incredible schar.
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imasoftov
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Mon, Oct 09 2017, 7:02 am
| PurpleandGold wrote: | | Perfection of schar v'onesh is one of the Thirteen Principles of our faith according to the Rambam. |
Perfection?
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PurpleandGold
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Mon, Oct 09 2017, 8:02 am
| imasoftov wrote: | | Perfection? |
Perfection meaning Hashem's perfect accounting of deeds - no deed will be forgotten. Every mitzvah will be rewarded, and every aveirah will be punished.
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Seas
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Mon, Oct 09 2017, 9:08 am
| Ruchel wrote: | Like the bas Cohen in the Gmara. Yup.
I also think that since women don't need to learn, if they do (not instead of shabbes and all like the reform) they have incredible schar. |
Actually Chazal say that someone who's commanded and does gets more schar than someone who is not commanded and does. This means the schar is much greater when one is mekayem a mitzvah they are mechuyav to keep than one they aren't mechuyav.
The reasoning given is that when one is mechuyav the Yetzer Horah will try and stop them, whereas with mitzvos one doesn't need to keep he's not really bothered.
Women don't really have a mitzvah of Torah learning at all. They are mechuyav to acquire the knowledge of halachos they need to keep, but it's not the mitzvah of limmud hatorah for its own sake.
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