Secular college for undergraduate

DrMom

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 1:44 am

IMO, regrettably, the humanities departments in most major universities these days are rife with radical leftism, to the point where other viewpoints are met with open hostility by both faculty and students. If your daughter is able to parrot back that point of view without being infected by it, then that may be a workable option.

Otherwise, I would stick with science, mathematics, engineering, business, etc. as the only reasonable options in the current US prestigious university system.

You may want to consider the frum campus options at each university you are investigating. How many other frum students are there? What are the housing options (Yale instituted a policy a few years back whereby they forced all students to live in coed dorms).

JoyInTheMorning

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 5:42 am

amother wrote:

I went to college (not in this country) but that was several decades ago. I became ba'alas teshuvah there but in a more modern group than I am now. I know what I was exposed to then and can only imagine what it's like now.

I also went to college decades ago, and I took plenty of courses in both the humanities and STEM, and I was exposed to a ton of treif ideas, as I mentioned above. I cannot see how this would not be a part of the college experience.

You say your daughter is interested in writing. I can tell you about the fiction writing class that I took when I was in college. The professor had written a novel, and expected us to read it. I found it in my local public library. It was raunchy enough that I didn't feel like I could take it out or read it. Students wrote stories and the professor read them aloud in class. Me, I wrote a story about a girl I knew in high school who had been kicked out for some unknown reason, and how I tried to keep up our friendship. Others wrote mostly about their love lives. There was one story about a young girl and a middle-aged man in some cabin somewhere, and ... ugh. And the student kept revising it, and it was read aloud again and again.

Don't think focusing on non-fiction would necessarily be better. For journalism class, students will be expected to write about whatever going's on locally or nationally, and that will include writing about LGBT issues, crimes like rape, points of view that are critical of Israel: in other words, tons of positions that you almost certainly aren't comfortable with.

I personally loved college, despite often feeling uncomfortable. I was always curious, and this was before the widespread adoption of the internet, so this was the way I got exposed to ideas. But it doesn't sound like your family would be comfortable with what goes on in college.

JoyInTheMorning

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 6:05 am

amother wrote:

We live within commuting distance from NYC - CUNY would be too far away. The only community in upstate NY is Rochester but it's just too small. My dh wants only ivy league or on of the top colleges just below ivy league. I strongly feel that Touro would be much better and then perhaps postgraduate at an ivy league.

Why the Ivies? They're not necessarily the best. Yes, Princeton and Harvard scuffle over who's the best each year, but U Chicago (not Ivy) is ranked above Yale, and both MIT and Stanford (not Ivies) are ranked above U Penn. (This is according to the US News and World Report: these rankings have their issues, but are overall a good indicator.)

Not that I'm suggesting that your daughter go to Stanford or U Chicago -- I wouldn't want my kids to go there -- just pointing out that going after an Ivy seems rather outdated to me. Does your DH want this because it will look good on your daughter's shidduch resume? (I know there are some young men in the shidduch world who consider themselves unconventional and want young women who are a little different and rather decorated with degrees and accomplishments.) Does he want it for the reflected glory?

I echo others who say that getting into one of the really good schools, Ivy or not, is very difficult these days. Admission rates are between 5 and 10%, and do not delude yourself into thinking that frum Jews are in the top 5 or 10% of the population. Even if they were, realize that the 5 to 10% acceptance figure is among those who apply, and for the most part, only very bright kids apply. Guidance counselors will not let every kid in their high school apply to the Ivies; they carefully select those whose applications they will encourage, the ones who have better chances of getting in. That's partly because good high schools also have their reputations to consider; they want to show a decent acceptance rate for their students. So, the 5 to 10% figure is from kids who have excellent SAT scores and high GPAs, take honors classes in subjects that likely weren't even offered in your daughter's high school, take AP exams, and participate in very demanding extracurriculars.

I think your daughter might be able to turn her very frum background into an advantage in the college admissions process if she writes an essay explaining how she grew up in a very sheltered community and now wants to expand her horizons. The college admissions board may feel that she could add to the diversity of the student body. But it's a long shot.

I grew up in New York and went to one of the CUNY schools. I then went to a top-rated graduate school in my field. (Not one of the Ivies, but top-rated nonetheless.) I had my choice of excellent positions when I finished graduate school. This was decades ago, and things have changed. It's a more competitive world. But it is still true that you can get an excellent education at one of the CUNY schools. Your dh may feel that the stigma of going to college can only be balanced by a top-rated college. Getting into one of the more prestigious honors programs at one of the CUNY schools may alter his position a bit. Ultimately, though, you need to know what you are sending your daughter into. You -- and more importantly, she! -- need(s) to make the choice that is right for her as a person.

ora_43

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 6:27 am

Any good university is going to expose your kid to ideas that challenge her ideas. That's a good thing.

I'm surprised, though, that so many are focusing on the content of the classes. For me the biggest challenge wasn't the classes, it was the social scene. And I don't mean like wild and crazy frat parties or anything (although those exist, too), just - friendships, dating, fitting in. As a frum Jew she'd often be the only one dressed a certain way. She'd often be the only one who can't eat where everyone else is eating, or go to the events everyone else is going to. She would be and feel different.

Some people don't mind this, or even enjoy it. It's not always bad being different. But some people mind it a lot.

If your daughter has never been outside a frum environment, she needs to think seriously about whether that's something she's interested in. Not just in terms of what "outside" values she wants to be exposed to, but in terms of how comfortable she'll feel.

Basically - secular college is a challenging environment (more or less so depending on the specific college), and whether it's right for a certain person really depends on their personality and on what they're hoping to get out of their college experience.

Ruchel

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 6:37 am

I can't tell you about American things/camps/sophomore/undergraduate and all, but as an adult I think going to uni will be ok if you don't live there (people here live at their parents barring studying in another city which is not the norm). I know many black kippa.

ok editing to add it's easier if it's not a campus or a dead campus. I went for many years. I never heard of frats (sounds so bad) and there was ONE party along all these years. My good girls friends went and told me they left before midnight because it was boring to them lol.

Last edited by Ruchel on Mon, Oct 09 2017, 6:39 am; edited 1 time in total

JoyInTheMorning

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 7:01 am

ora_43 wrote:

Most of the very frum girls I know who go to college entirely eschew the social scene. They go to class, lab, library, and then go home. They do not talk to other classmates. They do not get involved in activities.

I got involved with Hillel and a campus newspaper and various elections, so I was right in the thick of it. And I talked a lot to college professors. Plus, I was always talking to other classmates and making friends. That was the fun of college! However, you can certainly get an education without any of that. But the course content is unavoidable.

ora_43

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 7:23 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

That seems like such a waste. A huge part of the draw of top schools (in comparison to other schools) is what happens outside the classroom. Hearing lectures from experts in their fields, getting the opportunity to meet leaders in their professions (and future leaders in their professions), meeting and befriending interesting people from all over the world... If you just want to read the textbooks and take the tests, you could go to a correspondence school.

(I realize you aren't promoting this, and I'm probably preaching to the choir)

JoyInTheMorning

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 7:31 am

OP, I think if you point out to your DH what tuition is, he may change his mind. For example, Columbia's tuition and fees come to $57.2K; that's apart from room and board ($13.6K), which your daughter wouldn't have to pay. The average needs-based tuition scholarship is $50K, but as far as I know (1) that's over all four years (2) there are many poorer families out there that are more likely to get the scholarships.

Universities don't just hand out scholarship money; students are expected to take loans, and they're expected to work, too.

In contrast, out-of-state residents pay $14K in tuition and fees at Queens College. I think other CUNY schools charge similar prices.

JoyInTheMorning

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 7:38 am

ora_43 wrote:

Indeed, you are preaching to the choir. For me, the most amazing part of going to college was expanding my circle of friends and acquaintances. My life had been so very sheltered before. The only window I had on the world came from my public library.

From my first day in college, I realized that what I had heard about the outside world from my high school teachers was false in so many respects.

I am so much richer (in spirit and knowledge) for having participated in much more than just the classes. On that note, I have often thought that my experience was much richer because I went to a commuter, working-class college. I didn't hang around with upper-class and upper-middle-class kids who were tutored and guided throughout their lives. I met working-class kids and adults who were determined to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. I learned a lot of grit from their example, and I do believe that success is correlated with grit.

But that experience is not for every frum kid. If this girl's parents are worried about her seeing a LGBT poster in an elevator, I can't think of any college outside of Stern or Touro that would be suitable.

sequoia

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 11:31 am

Columbia has an active frum social life, though. She would not be isolated. Everyone from professors to security guards are familiar with and respectful of shabbat observance. Frum students organize themselves into single-sx suites. There are shabbat dinners and kosher options in both dining halls, Columbia and Barnard. There's obviously Hillel and Chabad. There's also a cooperative Jewish residence hall called the Bayit.

Yes, in the Core classes you have to read the NT. So what? It's for an academic class.

All that stuff about leftism being shoved down your throat is, frankly, nonsense. In my four years there I took literature, philosophy, art history, and psychology classes. Nothing was imposed on me. It may vary from discipline to discipline, and I imagine the social sciences like anthropology, sociology, or any kind of "studies" have a more explicitly political component.

Ruchel

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 12:19 pm

ora_43 wrote:

That's interesting. None of those are options in my country. Except making friends.

It's still very different than correspondence school, which my mother did partially, and you need incredible motivation. Sure, the very charedi crowd does correspondence much more than uni. I know that (I have chassidish acquaintances with correspondence ba, ma...)

amother

Goldenrod

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 12:44 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Yes it's a waste of certain opportunities like the ones you list. But even with all of those educational and networking opportunities wasted, in certain fields a prestigious degree opens doors that a correspondence school or even a solid state school won't. The book Pedigree examines this phenomenon closely in three specific industries if anyone is interested in reading more.

amother

Orchid

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 12:47 pm

sequoia wrote:

Columbia offers a joint degree program with JTS. Yes, that is Conservative, but the students are committed and observant Jews. So, given the existence of those students, Columbia certainly respects the beliefs and sensibilities of observant Jews.

In the long run, though, it depends on how sheltered OP's daughter wants to remain. If she wants to remain in an environment in which she never hears liberal points of view, never meets an openly gay or transgendered person (to whom she would be expected to act in a polite and civil manner), never sees PDA or hears about premarital relations, and is never required to work closely with a man, then secular college is not for her. Either is Stern, FTR, as Joy Ladin teaches there.

All that said, Columbia has a 7% acceptance rate. The average GPA is 4.16 -- meaning that almost everyone takes APs. At least 25% of accepted students have perfect SATs, and the 25th percentile has a 1530 (out of 1600). As someone else mentioned, we know people with near-perfect SATs, near-4.0 GPAs, and decent extracurriculars (including varsity sports), coming out of well-respected NYC magnet schools, who didn't get into Columbia. So while I wouldn't discourage application, I also wouldn't count on it.

Frankly, I think she should look at the Seven Sisters (or the still single gender Seven Sisters). Maybe Mount Holyoke, or Bryn Mawr. The all women's environment may be easier for her.

amother

Aubergine

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 2:03 pm

About why not Stern:

I'm not OP, but I used to be in a similar world. Some of the old Breuers families hew to a vision of Rav SR Hirsch that stresses both Torah Im Derech Eretz (=secular education) and Austritt, or complete separation from those we don't agree with Jewishly. From their perspective, college, whether Hunter or Harvard, is a good thing, but YU and Stern are inherently bad because they are "not our derech" and therefore must be avoided at all cost. For them, those considerations outweigh the benefits of the single-sx frum environments to be found at YU and Stern. I actually once was in a conversation with someone who proudly told me how one of a kind her son is for having both learned in yeshiva and graduated respectable universities for college and law school. I politely reminded her that at least a handful of YU guys (and Stern girls) do that each year, not to mention others. She was shocked that I would consider them to have truly studied in yeshiva.

Or, to put it in the terms my brother's somewhat prestigious rosh yeshiva used, its better to go to Holy Cross than YU, since at Holy Cross you'll know "it" is wrong.

SixOfWands

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 2:13 pm

amother wrote:

My mind boggles.

amother

Mint

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 2:22 pm

amother wrote:

Yup. From that community and totally familiar with that mentality.

As far as Touro, I went there for a semester until I realized that I had to pay money on top of all the financial aid I got, whereas if I went to Brooklyn college, I'd pay a fraction of the cost.

I'd say that the degrees are relatively equal, except that around the time I graduated Brooklyn, Touro made the news for having been busted selling degrees to people who never even attended classes. I don't know where they rank now, but I'm very happy with my Brooklyn college degree and zero debt from undergraduate.

That said, the social environment would likely be more up your daughter's alley.

ETA: I just googled and Brooklyn is ranked 86; Touro is not ranked (if they don't provide enough information to US news, they don't get ranked, which I would take as a commentary on lack of transparency but you can interpet as you wish.) Touro is $19,870 not including room and board.
Brooklyn is $6,840 if in state, $17,310, if out, but I thought you said you were upstate NY?
In any case, you can also look up the ranking for Hunter, NY college, Queens college, etc. All CUNY, I believe.