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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

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SixOfWands

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 2:49 pm

amother wrote:

Yup. From that community and totally familiar with that mentality.

As far as Touro, I went there for a semester until I realized that I had to pay money on top of all the financial aid I got, whereas if I went to Brooklyn college, I'd pay a fraction of the cost.

I'd say that the degrees are relatively equal, except that around the time I graduated Brooklyn, Touro made the news for having been busted selling degrees to people who never even attended classes. I don't know where they rank now, but I'm very happy with my Brooklyn college degree and zero debt from undergraduate.

That said, the social environment would likely be more up your daughter's alley.

ETA: I just googled and Brooklyn is ranked 86; Touro is not ranked (if they don't provide enough information to US news, they don't get ranked, which I would take as a commentary on lack of transparency but you can interpet as you wish.) Touro is $19,870 not including room and board.
Brooklyn is $6,840 if in state, $17,310, if out, but I thought you said you were upstate NY?
In any case, you can also look up the ranking for Hunter, NY college, Queens college, etc. All CUNY, I believe.

I'm not sure what ranking you're looking at, but Forbes' list has CUNY Brooklyn at 343, Hunter at 328, and Touro at 511. Queens is 290. Baruch 200.

amother

Yellow

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:03 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Also, OP, I think many of us are confused. If stern is not even on the table but NYU and other secular unis are, can you explain why stern no but those others are?

I would think touro would be a good fit.

We won't send to Stern since we don't agree with YU on a Jewish "political" level - we at the right end of the spectrum. (But I didn't want this thread to go down that road - I'd like to keep it on colleges). We are Yekkes so earning a parnossah is important to us, as opposed to kollel. We used to live out of town so my daughter experienced that, although it was a while ago. My daughter is going to a yeshivish sem. We keep cholov yisroel and shomrei negiyah but my dh wears a dress shirt and pants as opposed to black suit, hat and white shirt. I hope that describes us enough.

MagentaYenta

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:06 pm

amother wrote:

At the moment she's looking into either writing or business.

Have you checked out the writing or business programs in the schools you are interested in?

amother

Green

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:10 pm

If you don't agree with Stern on a political level, so what? At least your daughter will be among religious girls. Can you truly say that the total permissiveness of a college campus is better than exposure to Modern Orthodox Jews? Look at the student activities at secular colleges and at Stern. Which seems more wholesome?

amother

Yellow

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:11 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

Have you checked out the writing or business programs in the schools you are interested in?

Not yet...

amother

Yellow

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:16 pm

amother wrote:

I wholeheartedly agree with you about the other colleges. My dh doesn't think it's that bad but has agreed to go visit to see for himself. I'd really like to find some people for him to talk to to get a true picture of what they are like.

As far as Stern goes, the comments above regarding the Yekkishe perspective are spot on - it's not an option.

amother

Yellow

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:18 pm

wifeandmore wrote:

What about one of the seminary/college partnerships? For example Adelphi University through Mrs. Bulkas seminary program

I'm not even going to suggest them to dh. As far as I understand it they have a lower standing than Touro and that's going to be a battle in and of itself.

amother

Yellow

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:21 pm

DrMom wrote:

You may want to consider the frum campus options at each university you are investigating. How many other frum students are there? What are the housing options (Yale instituted a policy a few years back whereby they forced all students to live in coed dorms).

How would I find frum students at each place? We wouldn't consider any university which required dorming.

amother

Yellow

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:23 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

I also went to college decades ago, and I took plenty of courses in both the humanities and STEM, and I was exposed to a ton of treif ideas, as I mentioned above. I cannot see how this would not be a part of the college experience.

You say your daughter is interested in writing. I can tell you about the fiction writing class that I took when I was in college. The professor had written a novel, and expected us to read it. I found it in my local public library. It was raunchy enough that I didn't feel like I could take it out or read it. Students wrote stories and the professor read them aloud in class. Me, I wrote a story about a girl I knew in high school who had been kicked out for some unknown reason, and how I tried to keep up our friendship. Others wrote mostly about their love lives. There was one story about a young girl and a middle-aged man in some cabin somewhere, and ... ugh. And the student kept revising it, and it was read aloud again and again.

Don't think focusing on non-fiction would necessarily be better. For journalism class, students will be expected to write about whatever going's on locally or nationally, and that will include writing about LGBT issues, crimes like rape, points of view that are critical of Israel: in other words, tons of positions that you almost certainly aren't comfortable with.

I personally loved college, despite often feeling uncomfortable. I was always curious, and this was before the widespread adoption of the internet, so this was the way I got exposed to ideas. But it doesn't sound like your family would be comfortable with what goes on in college.

Very helpful re writing - thank you

BetsyTacy

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:25 pm

amother wrote:

How would I find frum students at each place? We wouldn't consider any university which required dorming.

Go to the websites
For example

http://housing.columbia.edu/in.....dents
First-Year Residential Requirement
The residential experience is an essential component of a Columbia education. All First-Year students are expected to live on-campus. If there is an extenuating circumstance that warrants additional discussion, please contact Residential Life via email or by phone at 212-854-6805. If you plan to submit a request for consideration to commute, you should indicate this when prompted on your application in the Housing Portal.

amother

Yellow

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:29 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Why the Ivies? They're not necessarily the best. Yes, Princeton and Harvard scuffle over who's the best each year, but U Chicago (not Ivy) is ranked above Yale, and both MIT and Stanford (not Ivies) are ranked above U Penn. (This is according to the US News and World Report: these rankings have their issues, but are overall a good indicator.)

Not that I'm suggesting that your daughter go to Stanford or U Chicago -- I wouldn't want my kids to go there -- just pointing out that going after an Ivy seems rather outdated to me. Does your DH want this because it will look good on your daughter's shidduch resume? (I know there are some young men in the shidduch world who consider themselves unconventional and want young women who are a little different and rather decorated with degrees and accomplishments.) Does he want it for the reflected glory?

Not shidduch resume, job resume, so that she can then do whatever she wants. He didn't finish college and regrets it - he doesn't want her making the same mistakes.

Quote:

I echo others who say that getting into one of the really good schools, Ivy or not, is very difficult these days. Admission rates are between 5 and 10%, and do not delude yourself into thinking that frum Jews are in the top 5 or 10% of the population. Even if they were, realize that the 5 to 10% acceptance figure is among those who apply, and for the most part, only very bright kids apply. Guidance counselors will not let every kid in their high school apply to the Ivies; they carefully select those whose applications they will encourage, the ones who have better chances of getting in. That's partly because good high schools also have their reputations to consider; they want to show a decent acceptance rate for their students. So, the 5 to 10% figure is from kids who have excellent SAT scores and high GPAs, take honors classes in subjects that likely weren't even offered in your daughter's high school, take AP exams, and participate in very demanding extracurriculars.

I hear you/agree with you but my dh thinks I give up too easily and he wants the very best for our kids.

amother

Amber

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:31 pm

I still don't understand the objection to stern, can you expand please?

I agree your dd is going to have trouble getting in to a top school. Brooklyn, queens or turo sound like good options for her. Plenty of orthodox at all three.

As an aside, this war against non liberal ideas is mostly conservative at universities is mostly conservative fear mongering. I just finished a graduate degree at a liberal university.

You've talked a lot about what you and your dh want, but what does your dd want?

amother

Yellow

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:31 pm

BetsyTacy wrote:

Thanks for the contact info for the dorming - but how can I find the frum students?

amother

Yellow

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:35 pm

amother wrote:

I still don't understand the objection to stern, can you expand please?

YU/Stern is zionist - we are not - I really really don't want to discuss this issue further because we're not going to get anywhere. We don't want her to go to Stern and she doesn't either. I don't mean to offend anyone - this is just how we hold.

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:38 pm

amother wrote:

And what about Touro? Thats a good wholesome frum college.

Also, no offense, but your argument about you not being zionistic and Stern being zionistic is sort of a silly one as going to a completely not jewish campus of a secular college will put your daughter into the know of many more things much "worse" than zionism.

amother

Yellow

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:39 pm

amother wrote:

You've talked a lot about what you and your dh want, but what does your dd want?

As I mentioned in my original post, she's torn. She needs to speak to other girls about this.

amother

Jetblack

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:40 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Fairleigh Dickinson offers degrees to the frum community. I think those are in business, if that's something you would consider. Fairleigh Dickinson is not Ivy League, but it considered pretty respectable.

No offense, but this school is nicknamed "Fairly Ridiculous" for a reason. I grew up in NYC, and we always thought of it as a joke.

amother

Green

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:40 pm

At Columbia, Jewish life is centered around the Kraft Center, and the Barnard/Columbia Hillel. There's a Chabad presence and also the OU has a JLIC couple on campus. NYU also has a Hillel, Chabad and JLIC couple. Google them for contact info. But I think your daughter really needs to spend some time among the students to get a sense of the environment.

amother

Yellow

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:42 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I think Touro is fine - dh thinks it's not good enough academically. I totally agree about the secular colleges.

BetsyTacy

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:43 pm

amother wrote:

Thanks for the contact info for the dorming - but how can I find the frum students?

During any college tour, go to the Beit Midrash or whatever that college calls the place where the frum kids hang out and attend shiurim.Find people to shmooze with and get contacts. Also most colleges have some frum group on campus. You can find contacts by contacting the student heads of those organizations. The best way remotely to find out about the Jewish life on campus is to contact the JLIC couple in charge of the campus. NYU, Columbia, etc all have JLIC/OU couples. As opposed to the kiruv of Chabad,they want to keep the frum kids frum.
https://oujlic.org/

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