Family maximums | Imamother

amother

Seagreen

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 12:16 pm

We have a very small family. We live in a smallish community so not tons of choices in terms of shuls. Our shul has something called family maximum. Was wondering if anyone could help me feel better about it. I can ask the same thing about per family fees for schools as well...

A family maximums means that if the shul is coordinating a trip to an indoor play area they will charge x per child up to a certain amount so no family has to pay more then y dollars. It bothers my dh every time they do it, because he feels like-well where's the rest of the money coming from, either the other families who go are paying more or the money from shul membership is covering it... either way it will probably be coming out of the pocket of people like us...we used to pay full membership (which is a lot of money for shul membership) and then realized that many many people didn't and just felt taken advantage of, like we are being expected to subsidize other people's chol hamoed trips.

I was wondering if someone could explain it in a way that would make us less bitter about it. I told my dh that I believe it has to do with the values of the shul.
1. to have large families
2. to have everyone be able to come, if they charge by kid then the larger families might choose not to join.

amother

Lavender

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 12:43 pm

amother wrote:

Yes, I very much agree with your points 1 and 2. I personally don't mind the arrangement; frum life is communal and it's a fact that in general, those with more money help out those with less. Those with a lot more money often help out in very siginificant ways with very significant amounts. That's what living in and being part of a community is all about. There is a sense of shared responsibility and unity - I imagine even more so within a specific congregation / shul. While I bH don't need my community's help in any way, it's a comfort to know that they have my back.
Ps. The book ahavas chesed (by the Chofetz chaim) in English, broken up in a lesson a day has helped me a lot with this.

mha3484

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 12:55 pm

I think for most families if the fee is per child with no sort of cap most wont come. I have three kids and I say no to plenty of activities because its too much for us. We do very few family activities that cost money to begin with and the ones we do are as cheap as I can manage. If a shul wants to make a community feeling where the members socialize with each other it needs to be affordable or no one will come.

amother

Seagreen

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 1:00 pm

amother- I'm curious if you have a small or large family?
My dh's response to your comment is- are people ok with him "educating" and disciplining their children? If he's paying for them then he should have a say on the way they are being educated and disciplined you can't have it that he pays but has no say.... He would prefer his involvement start with disciplining other peoples children Wink

but right now he keeps his mouth shut...

As an aside my dh is the epitome of having people's "back". Paying for chol hamoed trips isn't that. He doesn't like when other people are telling him that he has to pay for what they decide...

happy12

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 1:32 pm

My son's yeshiva has a person who sponsors for boy who cannot afford to go to events. For instance the shabbaton is subsidize to begin with but if people have more that one child it can be expensive. They send home a note regarding the shabbos sayING all boys should come, call if you want sponsorship.
They are not charging any parents extra for these boys. They have a separate sponsor.

groovy1224

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 1:43 pm

Of all things to get upset about..

It's worth it to the shul to foster a sense of unity. So they appropriate some percentage of the budget to subsidize events for families who can't/wont pay to attend otherwise. There is obviously some intangible benefit to boosting attendance at shul events, otherwise they would not do this.

Or you can look at it another way. Say it's $10 per child, up to $40 a family. So a family of 4 kids is paying the same as a family with 5, but you could just say the family of 5 is paying $8 a kid instead of 10. Call it a bulk discount. The more kids you have, the less you pay per kid. Sort of.

Either way, this doesn't seem like the kind of thing that's really worth getting twisted up about.

amother

Lavender

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 1:59 pm

amother wrote:

I have two kids, one is a baby so doesn't count. And helping people out financially- what does that have to do with him disciplining their children? Also, what percentage of families are overthe maximum number of kids, and how much money are they actually saving? Basically, how much extra is it actually costing? If it's a small percentage of families it's probably not that much extra - if anything at all - that the rest of the members are "sponsoring" on their behalf. Maybe he can find out how much of the fee is for others, and pay for that with tzedakah money?
I hope that other people will care about my children having a good time if God forbid I wasn't able to Afford it, and not only about if they have food and a roof over their heads.
Also, many people look at their money as a gift from God to dispense and help others with. Not as a tool of power or control - I give, I pay, so now I have the right to say. (It's a personal opinion - not a right or wrong.)

amother

Cobalt

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 2:12 pm

There are many ways you benefit from other peoples children. Those kids will grow up and pay taxes so you can retire, they will take care of you in your old age, they will be the doctors, nurses, rabbis etc society needs.

Just like it is stupid to complain about money going to fund public schools if you don't have kids or send your kids to a private school.

I arrange these types of events often for our shul and we often do a family maximum. Very few families have lots of kids though.

We often do have sponsors who will pay for people who can't afford things. And many things run at a loss, even if everyone would pay the full amount.

I have 6 kids and my kids rarely go to expensive trips because of that. If we had 2 or 3 kids we would have no problem affording these things. True, some parents of many kids are very rich but the truth is that many many frum families struggle financially due to the high cost of raising children, and being encouraged to have many children.

amother

Seagreen

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 2:15 pm

thank you lavender for clarifying.
This isn't what he would spend his tzedakah money which he does give.

I think it's just hard having a small family in a world that values and put their and by extension you money in to "large families". This isn't even the rich paying for the poor but the small paying for the large. It's hard enough being a small family in a large family world...

amother

Orchid

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:15 pm

Depending on where you live "OOT" there may well be a third related reason for the family max: subsidizing kollel. And yes, in a family where we both have higher education and work for a living I would be bitter if all our community institutions charged us more to subsidize kollel families who generally choose not to work, or to work at low level jobs.

amother

Red

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:39 pm

Or maybe they pay a certain amount for the trip location, let's say they make a deal with the place for $500 total and commit at least 60 kids with $5 for each additional kid or whatever. Then they want all families to contribute $50, so they make that the family max, but offer a discount to families with less kids, just $12 a piece so it will be more fair. IOW you're getting a discount, not subsidizing them.

I think it's considerate to have a family max, although we will pay above if we can. (Where we went for kaparos had a family maximum rate for every family member, we paid for most chickens, above that because we were able to.)

People feel an obligation to go on the shul trip, even if they'd usually go to a cheaper or free place. Putting a cap on the cost makes it less painful. (IOW we're making YOUR trip to this place possible by joining the shul group, otherwise you'd not have a big group of friends to go with, the family cap just makes it possible for us to do that.)

amother

Cerise

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:55 pm

amother wrote:

ITA that it is hard being a small family in a large family world. I also have a very small family (which I struggle to be ok with, since I always dreamed of having a large family), in addition to being a single mom and struggling financially. So I definitely feel a pang when I see situations of family maximums as you describe. That being said, I understand it and I think it is reasonable. I think the idea is to think how much money would be reasonable for a family to manage at once and to cap it at the amount. For example, if a school charges $100 for a major trip or the like, they are assuming that up to say $300 is a reasonable amount for a family to lay out at one time, but that more than that is just too much to expect a family to manage at once. In the situation you describe, I would imagine the shul wants to have a nice crowd so that it can be a community-wide activity so they make sure the total per family is within a certain limit.

amother

Seagreen

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 4:49 pm

so honestly we don't feel "obligated" to go to these community type events. We usually don't go. Never got a call from the rabbi or president saying we were missed or anything. Which I'm completely fine with, we are adults we can decide what we want to go or not. I don't know may be I should be insulted but I'm not Wink

There are other ways of contributing to the community. Since we aren't going- you aren't doing me any favors Wink

I see that the "arguments" I gave my dh are the same ones being given here- the amount a family would be willing to spend on a trip, for more people to come... honestly it's more an emotional thing for me, being around lots of large families when that's unfortunately not my reality, then a principal thing like it is for my dh. Like for me it would be hard to go to these things even if it was free.

miami85

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 7:03 pm

First of all, if a shul or other group arranges a trip, then they are probably assuming that there is a group rate, thus they need a certain minimum number to attend--so if they get those families with large families to come then that helps the numbers to get the group rate and then everyone "wins" b/c everyone gets in cheaper. Secondly, one of the goals of these types of trips is so that they can control the atmosphere--play Jewish music, shorter lines, kosher food etc. Thirdly, these are usually places that are prohibitively expensive for a "large family" on a good day, so if instead of paying $13/kid and you have 5-6 kids instead of paying almost $100 for a one day outing, a family gets a "maximum" rate of $50, they probably get to do something fun for one day more than they would've otherwise. Its hard being in a large kollel-type family where you mostly get hand-me-downs, and even a "family trip to the ice cream store" is a big deal. Another thing is from my experience is that often there is a "trip sponsor" for a yahrtzeit or other zechus, and therefore its not necessarily coming from the "other shul members" but by a generous donor. Finally, that attitude of "why should we help the large kollel families?" Well, Torah learning supports the world, thus they may not be contributing financially to the cause, they are contributing to the spiritual success of the community.