S/O secular college- Stern

SixOfWands

Sat, Oct 14 2017, 9:29 pm

DrMom wrote:

I have an excellent degree and work in a secular company and my team knows that I don't work on shabbatot and chagim. Period. Plenty of Orthodox Jews work successfully in medicine, law, business, engineering, etc.

Furthermore, the original argument for shunning such educational opportunities is that no frum company in the poster's community would hire someone with a secular education from YU/Stern. Not because they were unqualified to perform the job, but because of prejudice against "their type."

I find it odd that nobody objects to this.

I did not attend YU/Stern, but I'd certainly prefer to work in a secular environment where I can find challenging work and where I am judged by my achievements than some dead-end frum office where I would be discriminated against (or not hired at all) for using the brain that Hashem gave me.

I don't think I know anyone who works for a "frum" company. Yet everyone manages to get home for Shabbat, and for Yom tov. Doctors and dentists and lawyers and engineers and architects and nurses and techs and assistants and clerks and managers and business owners and everyone else.

Its just a scare tactic to keep people away from those evil MO Jews.

Mommyg8

Sun, Oct 15 2017, 1:44 pm

To respond to the original question...

I had a discussion over yom tov with the menfolk in my family. It seems that they would prefer a secular college to YU/Stern, as well, and this is their reasoning...

The very RW community is against the whole concept of YU - the fact that there is Gemarah learning and secular studies mixed together. This goes completely against their hashkafa. Stern would not be as big of an issue, it's only that it's connected to YU.

If you feel that an institution should not exist, then it would be a little two faced to benefit from it.

OTOH, these guys wouldn't send their daughter to Harvard either, so I'm not sure if we're on the same page....

MagentaYenta

Sun, Oct 15 2017, 1:58 pm

[quote="amother"]Unfortunately, the secular world doesn't care that you are Jewish. They don't care that sunset comes earlier on Friday. Your secular education doesn't matter if you are not willing to work the exact same hours as everyone else. ...[/quote]

You sound a bit out of the loop.The secular world (here in the US) has civil laws that ensure that Jews, Jains, Sikhs, Muslims, Pagans, JWs, Mormons etc have reasonable religious accommodations.

Mommyg8

Sun, Oct 15 2017, 2:03 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

You sound a bit out of the loop.The secular world (here in the US) has civil laws that ensure that Jews, Jains, Sikhs, Muslims, Pagans, JWs, Mormons etc have reasonable religious accommodations.

Yes, they do, but they don't have laws as to who they have to hire, and they can just not hire someone who they don't feel would be a good "fit" with their culture (euphemism for not working Shabbos and Yomim Tovim). Also, they CAN fire you for not coming in Friday, Shabbos, etc., as long as they make it sound as if it is for something else.

I know marina will pop up and say that you can sue, but alas, not everyone has access to lawyers, money, etc....

amother

Orange

Sun, Oct 15 2017, 2:15 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

(1). No, they can't refuse to hire you because you're Jewish, or because you won't work on Shabbat.

(2). No, they cannot fire you for not coming in on Shabbat or Yom tov.

(3). The claim would be brought before the EEOC, not in court. You don't really need counsel in the first instance.

We're into fantasy land, where Jews don't work in secular workplaces. Its just not so. We live in an America where we recently had a shomer Shabat Secretary of the Treasury. Baruch HaShem. And where every industry, every field, has frum Jews.

MagentaYenta

Sun, Oct 15 2017, 2:21 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I'm sure that can happen. You fail to take into consideration that the accommodation should be discussed with the employer once the offer is accepted by the employee. It is the employees responsibility to request the accommodation. But I will say that my experience in both the private and public sector a religious accommodation is no big deal. Your assumption that a person can be fired for not coming in on Friday may be true in some small businesses in the private sector. But if you didn't come to agreement on the accommodation at the time you accepted the offer that's your problem. (FYI the accommodation doesn't cover Friday nights in most instances unless that is part of the regular work schedule.Same with Saturdays.) It does mean that an accommodating employer will give you a reasonable accommodation so that you can get home to observe your shabbos.

Oh and as an FYI you do not need an atny to file with the EEOC. Once the EEOC determines you have a valid complaint, the employer will likely fold.

Mommyg8

Sun, Oct 15 2017, 2:25 pm

My dh works for a government agency - obviously not Jewish - so I'm pretty familiar with that aspect of things. But I always I assumed that he was protected because it's a government agency.

I'm going to be looking for a job soon, iy'h, so I'm pretty happy to hear that this could work. As this issue becomes more relevant, I will definitely look into this more closely. Thanks for clarifying!

MagentaYenta

Sun, Oct 15 2017, 2:46 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I worked in public service for the majority of my adult working life. I never had a single problem regarding accommodations for my religious practices. It just wasn't an issue. It has been my experience that HRs in the public sector have a list of religious holidays and a calendar for each year. I just completed it annually and tweeked it if necessary (flying to the kids for Pesach, I need another 12 hrs etc.). Certainly if you work in a union represented position, your collective bargaining agreement has this all spelled out. I always worked the winter Xtian holidays and my Xtian coworkers were very appreciative. My children all worked in the private sector (at some point) and never had a problem with accommodations.

Mommyg8

Sun, Oct 15 2017, 2:55 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

I really do appreciate this information! I was wondering whether I could get a job in a company that is not Jewish, and I had basically assumed (without doing any research) that Shabbos and Yom Tov would be a problem (especially Friday afternoon). Really good to know that this is not true! Thanks!

MagentaYenta

Sun, Oct 15 2017, 2:56 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Best of luck on your job search!!

petiteruchy

Sun, Oct 15 2017, 3:14 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Bad employers will also fire you for being pregnant (happened to me), for complaining about s-xual harassment, for refusing unsafe work conditions, etc. Basically, you can't be guaranteed anything when choosing new employment, but workers are still afforded rights in the workplace. Being observant and needing religious accommodations is just one other right that needs protection under law.

Mommyg8

Sun, Oct 15 2017, 4:14 pm

imasoftov wrote:

And why is that bad, according to the men you discussed this with?

Look, they are obviously not on the same side of the political spectrum as you are, and they feel that this gives legitimacy to secular education. You don't have to agree with them, and you don't have to argue with them. You are also NOT going to change their opinions.

I was just explaining a certain line of reasoning, I knew before I posted this that I was going to be opening a can of worms... I don't know why I did this.

amother

Smokey

Sun, Oct 15 2017, 4:37 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Do those same men have any kind of secular higher education? If so, they are being somewhat hypocritical. Isn't it better to also have higher education along with high level Torah learning then with no Torah learning? The top shiur in YU features shiur until 3 pm, then a full load of college classes, then back to night seder.

Mommyg8

Sun, Oct 15 2017, 4:42 pm

amother wrote:

No, they don't have a higher secular education.

And no, they are not being hypocritical. They DON'T feel that it is better to have "higher education along with high level Torah learning". They feel that they a man should learn exclusively the first few years out of high school, if they are capable of it, and then get a degree only if necessary, for parnassah. The RW Orthodox community has figured out ways to get degrees later on. True, they are not the equivalent of a Harvard degree, but that is the trade-off they feel is worthwhile.

imasoftov

Sun, Oct 15 2017, 6:20 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I didn't think I was going to agree with them and I'm not even asking you to pass my opinion on to try to get them to change their minds (I don't even have any opinions on whether anyone anywhere on the spectrum should or shouldn't go to YU/Stern), but I still think it's possible to understand the other side's reasoning (I think that both gemara and university teach this, whether offered together or separately). But I don't understand how getting a secular education at an institution that doesn't also teach Jewish studies gives less legitimacy to that secular education than going to an entirely secular institution. Did it make sense to you when you discussed it with them over Yom Tov?

MagentaYenta

Sun, Oct 15 2017, 6:29 pm

Here is an interesting side note regarding Stern. Little did I know that it is also an education destination for young LDS women. I'd heard a bit on the radio a few months back by an LDS woman who had attended Stern. I was surprised and asked an LDS friend of mine. She said that it's pretty much an east coast thing and not all LDS women have the grades to get into BYU.