S/O secular college- Stern

Mommyg8

Sun, Oct 15 2017, 6:33 pm

imasoftov wrote:

I didn't think I was going to agree with them and I'm not even asking you to pass my opinion on to try to get them to change their minds (I don't even have any opinions on whether anyone anywhere on the spectrum should or shouldn't go to YU/Stern), but I still think it's possible to understand the other side's reasoning (I think that both gemara and university teach this, whether offered together or separately). But I don't understand how getting a secular education at an institution that doesn't also teach Jewish studies gives less legitimacy to that secular education than going to an entirely secular institution. Did it make sense to you when you discussed it with them over Yom Tov?

Yes, it makes sense to me.

First, it's not a question of giving legitimacy to secular education. Everyone on my side of the fence understands that a superior secular education has value. It's giving legitimacy to secular studies as being EQUAL to Gemarah, etc. that is the problem.

To explain things on a different level, historically speaking, what YU has done is completely unprecedented in Jewish history. Higher institutions of Jewish learning have always existed, but they have always been pure Jewish learning, and nothing more. There has never been a yeshiva that mixed Gemarah with secular studies. So there is a very strong feeling of suspicion of anything that will "dilute" pure Jewish studies. In the past two hundred years, there were many schools that were attempted in Europe and in Israel (the Alliance), with disastrous results, at least from a frumkeit perspective.

Another issue is that many of the Roshei Yeshiva (not all) were against college, altogether. Some Roshei Yeshiva were ok with this on an individual case by case basis, but felt that most people should not go to college, for various reasons. They were against any college, whether secular or not.

I don't know if this answers some of your questions, and I would be glad to answer any other questions, to the best of my ability.

amother

Smokey

Sun, Oct 15 2017, 7:12 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

So you and your male friends don't understand YU. It's not a yeshiva that mixes Gemara and secular studies. It's a yeshiva which is its own entity combined with a university which is its own entity housed under the same global umbrella.

imasoftov

Mon, Oct 16 2017, 3:31 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

First, it's not a question of giving legitimacy to secular education. Everyone on my side of the fence understands that a superior secular education has value. It's giving legitimacy to secular studies as being EQUAL to Gemarah, etc. that is the problem.

To explain things on a different level, historically speaking, what YU has done is completely unprecedented in Jewish history. Higher institutions of Jewish learning have always existed, but they have always been pure Jewish learning, and nothing more. There has never been a yeshiva that mixed Gemarah with secular studies. So there is a very strong feeling of suspicion of anything that will "dilute" pure Jewish studies. In the past two hundred years, there were many schools that were attempted in Europe and in Israel (the Alliance), with disastrous results, at least from a frumkeit perspective.

Another issue is that many of the Roshei Yeshiva (not all) were against college, altogether. Some Roshei Yeshiva were ok with this on an individual case by case basis, but felt that most people should not go to college, for various reasons. They were against any college, whether secular or not.

I don't know if this answers some of your questions, and I would be glad to answer any other questions, to the best of my ability.

Your first paragraph is a coherent argument. You previously were unclear about their position when you said "they feel that this gives legitimacy to secular education" and you've now cleared that up. Although how do they feel about secular colleges with a Jewish Studies department?

Your second paragraph is a combination of "chadash asur min hatorah" (a known position), as well as a historical argument, although I'd ask how the results of Jews attending secular universities in the past compared from a frumkeit perspective. For that matter it would be interesting to compare contemporary RW Jews who attend secular programs after a number of years of full-time yeshiva to others who avoid secular higher education entirely.

But I don't get your third paragraph. Perhaps you've once again left out part of what was clear to you. For those who follow the RYs who are against college entirely, it would seem that the question here would not be why to prefer secular college to YU, but how one could attend either. But it would be interesting to know who originated your previous points, those against college entirely ("don't think you can escape the harmful effects of college by going to YU, that's even worse") or the case by case permitters ("Yosef, you can go to college, so long as it's not YU").

DrMom

Mon, Oct 16 2017, 3:39 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

To explain things on a different level, historically speaking, what YU has done is completely unprecedented in Jewish history. Higher institutions of Jewish learning have always existed, but they have always been pure Jewish learning, and nothing more. There has never been a yeshiva that mixed Gemarah with secular studies. So there is a very strong feeling of suspicion of anything that will "dilute" pure Jewish studies. In the past two hundred years, there were many schools that were attempted in Europe and in Israel (the Alliance), with disastrous results, at least from a frumkeit perspective.

Another issue is that many of the Roshei Yeshiva (not all) were against college, altogether. Some Roshei Yeshiva were ok with this on an individual case by case basis, but felt that most people should not go to college, for various reasons. They were against any college, whether secular or not.

I do not understand this argument. Doesn't Touro mix Gemarah with secular learning? And yet this institution is an acceptable one to many who shun YU. The issue is clearly hashkafa, not the combination of secular and kodesh learning.

And if someone is against college altogether, how is this a case for a secular U over YU/Stern?

cbsp

Mon, Oct 16 2017, 9:41 am

amother wrote:

It's possible to understand the argument and find its ramifications abhorrent. Yes, I understand that people are opposed to mixing Kodesh and chol, but if this worldview leads them to send a child into a cesspool of immorality rather than an environment of shomrei mitzvos, maybe some rethinking is in order.

You apparently do not understand just how opposed the Rabbonim are to the mixing of Kodesh and Chol in one institution.

Contrary to the implications of your last statement, they're not unaware of the potential horrific ramifications of attending a secular institution. They still view that, as evil as is is, as ultimately better for individuals in their community, rather than giving a hechsher to a YU type institution (which would also include Touro's Lander's).

Mommyg8

Mon, Oct 16 2017, 9:58 am

imasoftov wrote:

Thank you, imasoftov! It's a pleasure "arguing" with you, as you are one of the few who actually READ the posts, and you have a clear, logical mind that is not common! I will be glad to answer you.

The first answer was given verbatim by my "menfolk", as you have guessed. As to a secular college with a Jewish studies department - I haven't asked them, but I'm 99% sure that they are completely against it.

I'm sorry if my second paragraph didn't come across clear. It was not meant to be a reason per se, but rather a historical explanation. It's not a question of chodosh asur min hatorah, which was the Chasam's Sofer position, but this goes much deeper than that - that fundamentally Torah must be kept pure, as it has always been throughout the generations.

As for my third paragraph - I was trying to keep my post within "normal" limits, so I erred on the side of brevity, and it obviously did not come across clear. What I meant to say, and this is not from my dh and sons, but this was my own understanding - is that since in the RW world we don't believe in college as something that "everyone" should do, an institution that promotes the ideal that everyone should have a college degree is not one that would align well with our worldview. In other words, YU believes that their's is the ideal. The RW world believes that college might or might not be a necessary evil, but only for those who have spoken to their "Rosh Yeshiva" or "Moreh Derech" or whatever, and discussed the pros and cons and will be willing to work with their Rav in asking shaylos as they go along. So obviously, some Rabbanim are completely against college, and the people who follow them will not go to any college at all, but there are other Rabbanim who will have a different opinion. I know numerous very frum people who have college degrees, so it is obviously not completely wrong.

So - our understanding is - since the RW world does not believe that YU should exist, it would be hypocritical to use their college if these individuals do decide to go.

I'm going to make this post even longer, if you are still with me, to explain something further - I'm not sure how familiar you are with the very yeshivish world - it sounds as if you are not, so I'll just give some basic background. Very few Yeshivish men have college degrees from a "real" college. As for the women - I was just making a headcount of the people I know, and I would say that about half do have some kind of degree - usually from a frum program. My Chassidish friend thinks this is crazy, and we have it completely backwards, but that's how it is.

Mommyg8

Mon, Oct 16 2017, 10:05 am

amother wrote:

I think that there is a serious misconception here. The very frum people only send their children to "frum" programs. There is a very tiny minority that is going to a secular college.

I think that I was answering a theoretical question, as to "which would be worse"? And for reasons that I explained earlier, YU/Stern would be off the table. I do know some people who are going to "secular" colleges, but it is usually a college that is well researched and they are going with a group of other girls, etc. and this program is more goal oriented - such as nursing, PA, speech, OT, PT - etc. so alot of these problems don't come up.

imasoftov

Mon, Oct 16 2017, 10:58 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Very few Yeshivish men have college degrees from a "real" college. As for the women - I was just making a headcount of the people I know, and I would say that about half do have some kind of degree - usually from a frum program. My Chassidish friend thinks this is crazy, and we have it completely backwards, but that's how it is.

Now I'm curious about
1) Does "from a real college" imply that there are men with degrees from institutions other than regular colleges?
2) Is the difference between how men and women get higher education based on a principle?Or perhaps there's no difference and the alternative to real college and the frum programs you spoke about are the same things, but with the genders separated?
3) How does your friend thing it's backward, she would send men to frum programs and women to not real colleges? And is her view based on a principle as well? Have chassidic rebbes made statements about higher education that differ from those made by yeshivish RYs?

cbsp

Mon, Oct 16 2017, 1:55 pm

imasoftov wrote:

As I understand it, "real" college vs. (what I call) "bubble" college or courses for a specific field that would end in a certificate rather than a degree.

So a "bubble" college would be a place where genders are separated, majority of students are religious Jews, professors (not necessarily religious or even Jewish) do not discuss certain topics in class, content is ensured to be clean and kosher (literature, art, etc). The level of education, while not in league with the Ivy colleges, can be decent, and a motivated student can go on to excel in their chosen field. The usual college related activities are for the most part absent - no clubs, fraternities or sororities, social activities, etc. The goal is to get done as quickly as possibly and, even the full full time students (18+ credits per semester) are usually working or (in the case of a guy) learning. The Touro LAS programs fit this bill as well as their Machon L'Parnassah (which I thing is even more sheltered). The student legitimately earns a full undergrad degree (associates or bachelor's) with core requirements in addition to major requirements.

There are other programs which are run similar to getting college credits in high school - they partner with an accredited college (Excelsior comes to mind) but the courses and the school is run by a frum administration. I think CLEPing is used for these programs as a "l'chatchilah" and there are only a few select majors offered. Sometimes these programs are used as a stepping stone to get to the graduate program faster (although now I believe there are frum cohorts in graduate schools as well). I'm wondering if the "frum" program at FDU falls into this category.

Then there are the certificate type programs, for professions that don't require a full degree, like programming, IT support, graphic design, etc. Again, gender separated, tachlis oriented, carefully crafted content.

I have no idea where a place like The Yeshiva at IDT falls on this spectrum.

keym

Mon, Oct 16 2017, 2:58 pm

Speaking as the wife of a man who did "fake college" in Lakewood, college and the subsequent degree are seen as a means to tje end of supporting ones family and not a journey.
Men are encouraged to use their btl from yeshiva plus prerequisites and cleps to get into graduate programs that are as focused and fast as possible.
Agudahs PCs.accounting program has established satelite schools for fdu in Lakewood and Monsey. 18 mths, separate gender, intense and focussed on getting MA to sit for your CPA. Many members of my husbands cohort have gone to get jobs in the Big Four.
They walk away with the skill set for the job to support their family, but not the "well rounded" college experience. Thats not the goal.
Im happy to clarify, but im not really interested in debating whether this is ideal or not.

Mommyg8

Mon, Oct 16 2017, 5:40 pm

imasoftov wrote:

I'm going to answer question #2, but just bear in mind that this is just MY answer, and I am not representing any sort of community... but this is how I understand it:

#2) - The principle of the difference between men and women's higher education is that men are encouraged, if at all possible, to stay in full time learning as long as they can. And they also feel that if you are learning, you should not be going to college at the same time, but focus exclusively on learning. For women, the issues are different, as women do not have an obligation of full time Torah learning, and many girls do get degrees from a kosher source once they finish seminary.

#3) - My chassidish friend thinks this is backwards, as she thinks that men should be working, and not the women. Her reasoning is that if anyone should be "out there" in the big wide world, it should be the men, not the women. I don't know if she represents all Chassidish women, though, as I do know quite a few Chassidish women who have gotten degrees.

BTW Kym, your dh did not do "fake" college. He has a very real degree.

amother

Forestgreen

Mon, Oct 16 2017, 6:16 pm

DrMom wrote:

I have an excellent degree and work in a secular company and my team knows that I don't work on shabbatot and chagim. Period. Plenty of Orthodox Jews work successfully in medicine, law, business, engineering, etc.

My team knew it and supported it too, but company policy was company policy. Again, just my experience. I am glad yours was more positive. I think I agree with your other points. I certainly don't think someone's college choice should automatically imperil opportunities (career and shidduchim) in the frum world, but for many it does. They aren't in a position to change the system in the next four years; they have to choose a college based on what they think will give them the best opportunities in the community they want to be in.

SixOfWands

Mon, Oct 16 2017, 6:26 pm

amother wrote:

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits employment discrimination based on religion. This includes refusing to accommodate an employee's sincerely held religious beliefs or practices unless the accommodation would impose an undue hardship (more than a minimal burden on operation of the business). See https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/news.....n.cfm

If your company refused to accommodate your need to leave work on Friday in time for Shabbat, or to take off chagim, then they were probably in violation of federal law.