Are these gadol stories true?

amother

Rose

Wed, Oct 18 2017, 8:03 pm

My grandfather was a very famous "name" gadol. (That's why I am posting anonymously.) And, as someone quoted Rebbetzin Zaks as saying, I can tell you for a fact that almost none of the stories said about my Zaide were true, and the rest were exaggerated hugely. My zaide used to hate hearing those stories because they were so unrealistic. He felt they discouraged kids from understanding that gedolim are just people, and being a gadol is within everybody's reach. I feel that when people tell these stories they do the gadol and the people who hear the stories a disservice. Why not talk about the beautiful way he benched lulav and try to emulate that, rather than turning him into some sort of supernatural freak?

PinkFridge

Wed, Oct 18 2017, 8:07 pm

amother wrote:

What was the beautiful way he benched lulav, and how would one emulate that?

amother

Wheat

Wed, Oct 18 2017, 10:29 pm

amother wrote:

op here- Thank you so much for sharing this. You totally explained my point. Hashem does not expect us to be malachim- that's why he created us and that is what I try to point out to my ds every time he comes back with a story another friend told him. Of course I want him to respect gedolim, but for him to want to stay up all night learning because so and so rebbi only got 3 hours of sleep and was fine he should too- so yes we are on the borderline of going off the religious deep end and "balance" is our new vocabulary word. I don't want to knock every over the top story or he will not share with me, but these supernatural stories seem to be way cooler than the mentsch stories and I am getting to that frustration level.....
And yes I totally wish he would be hearing stories about how our gedolim treated people and the respect they showed for their wives and congregation and the good they did for others- not these supernatural stories...

Seas

Wed, Oct 18 2017, 11:49 pm

simcha2 wrote:

It is fine for him to find inspiration in these stories, but they should probably be balanced. Teach him the difference between biographies and hagiography.

If Hashem himself doesn't make our leaders in the Torah into saints, not sure we should to living (or recently deceased) leaders. Yitzchak appreciated good food (he sent Eisav to make him some) as did Avraham (as you can see when the malachim arrive).

Trying to see the lesson rather than the literal, and a whole person rather than a saint are the ideal.

Avraham and Yitzchok were nevi'im. In order to reach the level of nevuah one had to be totally separate from worldly pleasures and interests.

See what the Rambam writes:
Prophecy is bestowed only upon a very wise sage of a strong character, who is never overcome by his natural inclinations in any regard. Instead, with his mind, he overcomes his natural inclinations at all times. He must [also] possess a very broad and accurate mental capacity.

A person who is full of all these qualities and is physically sound [is fit for prophecy]. When he enters the Pardes and is drawn into these great and sublime concepts, if he possesses a accurate mental capacity to comprehend and grasp [them], he will become holy. He will advance and separate himself from the masses who proceed in the darkness of the time. He must continue and diligently train himself not to have any thoughts whatsoever about fruitless things or the vanities and intrigues of the times.

Instead, his mind should constantly be directed upward, bound beneath [God's] throne [of Glory, striving] to comprehend the holy and pure forms and gazing at the wisdom of the Holy One, blessed be He, in its entirety, [in its manifold manifestations] from the most elevated [spiritual] form until the navel of the earth, appreciating His greatness from them. [After these preparations,] the divine spirit will immediately rest upon him.

http://www.chabad.org/library/.....n.htm

We haven't the slightest clue about the greatness of the Avos.

simcha2

Thu, Oct 19 2017, 6:36 am

Seas wrote:

I think you are misreading the Rambam. He is talking about having control of one's thoughts, not denying oneself pleasure. We are not Buddhist! How do I know? If the avot really separate themselves from the pleasures of this world, they wouldn't have had any children.

amother

Apricot

Thu, Oct 19 2017, 7:19 am

Seas wrote:

Yet Rashi writes that Avrohom wasn't even aware of Sarah's beauty until he noticed it by accident as a very old man on the way to Mitzrayim.

For them having children was done purely l'shem shamayim, no different than fasting on YK or taking the lulav on Sukkos.

And how do you know that exactly? The Chumash goes out of its way to give us the human dimensions of the Avos. That doesn't mean we can at all compare ourselves to them, but it does mean that they were human, and that their humanity offers us lessons for life.

simcha2

Thu, Oct 19 2017, 7:43 am

Seas wrote:

Ummm..Ishmael? The torah recounts that Avraham remarries after Sara's death.

The deification of humans is avodah zara and a destruction of the Torah.

One of the most amazing things about the Torah and Judaism is that we don't turn our heroes into saints. The Torah tells of their difficulties and mistakes so that we can learn. The beauty of yiddishkeit is the ability to make the mundane holy. By removing people from the mundane of the world you are taking that ability away.

amother

Emerald

Thu, Oct 19 2017, 8:13 am

I don't know if those stories are true, but you can share real stories that you know happened to try to give him a more accurate picture.

Here's a real one about Reb Chaim Kanievksy, which I heard from someone who witnessed it. Reb Chaim commented to someone that when he used to go to wedding when he was young, the orchestra would play all kinds of songs. He doesn't understand why nowadays the only thing they seem to play is Yamim.

PinkFridge

Thu, Oct 19 2017, 8:46 am

amother wrote:

Re the three hours: he needs to hear all the stories of the gedolim who sent the boys out of beis medrash to bed.

leah233

Thu, Oct 19 2017, 9:52 am

amother wrote:

As I asked before how could you know for a fact that almost none of the stories said about your Zaide were true and the rest were exaggerated hugely? Were you around him 24/7? And why should I believe an anonymous amother ,or even an actual grandchild who I know personally, who wasn't there over say a Talmid who claims to have been there when a story took place?

But please share the beautiful way he benched lulav with us.

amother

Wine

Thu, Oct 19 2017, 10:12 am

Op, perhaps your real concern is not whether the gedolim stories are true, but about your son's extreme behavior right now?

I understand your concerns, my husband is a mechina rebbe for many years, and worked with a teenage boy that wanted to be a parush type tzadik, staying up all night learning at 15, and he was later diagnosed and treated for OCD.

The ascetic behavior of some gedolim is real, "harbei drachim l'makom", it IS a Torah path, one of many Torah paths, and not the right path for most people, even most gedolim. And it is a path not available to a young man - I believe such behavior cannot begin until a man is in his forties, has learned a specific, tremendous amount, and has permission from his family. Obviously a teenager is not qualified.

On the other hand, teens crave drama and the sensual, are extremely passionate and emoted, and have no outlet until marriage. If your son expresses his teenage angst by modeling after behavior of ascetic gedolim, it may be ok (and better than so many other teen outlets!), or it may be dangerous. Only you can determine that, and if his behavior seems extreme to you or one of his rebbeim, please enlist the help of a professional in determining how to help your son achieve balance.

Chayalle

Thu, Oct 19 2017, 10:41 am

OP, I had a very good friend in seminary who told me her BIL was a great-grandson of R' Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld. She told me that R' Yosef Chaim left a tzavaah for his descendants that (among other things) they should sleep 8 hours a night. Her BIL is a serious Ben Torah, and he keeps to this. What he finds is, his learning during the day is of a higher quality - focused and intense, as he's well rested.

I've heard sad stories of yeshiva bachurim trying to imitate stories about Gedolim, who have crashed and had mental breakdowns. The result is less Torah learned, not to mention other lifelong repercussions.

I wish the Yeshivos would focus more on the health of their students.

amother

Wheat

Thu, Oct 19 2017, 9:19 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Yes yes yes!! Like the time my son stopped finishing the food on his plate and when asked why he said his Rebbe told him rav(don't remember the name) always left over some food to show he had control over his tayvehs. When I shared with the Rebbe what my son was doing he thought it was sweet!!!!!! There will always be boys in a class that will feel they need to take it to the next level- the classroom Rebbi needs to know his audience and if need be say- don[t try this at home...

Chayalleh -Can I share the R' Sonnenfeld story with my son and all the other stories everyone has posted showing that Gedolim are people too.

Seas

Thu, Oct 19 2017, 9:34 pm

amother wrote:

Because we are not karaites. We learn chumash purely through the lens of Chazal and the Rishonim.

amother

Rose

Thu, Oct 19 2017, 9:51 pm

Obviously I was not around him 24/7 but I was around a lot. Also the issue of "gedolim stories" is one we in my family discussed on many occasions, and as I said, he was not happy about them and felt they did the opposite of inspire because they set up an ideal for kids that being a godol is some sort of super-human thing, rather than something which is within the reach of all of us. His REAL talmidim (not the people who learned by him for a zman or less, but the talmidim with whom he had longterm contact), would say the same. I am sorry that this disappoints you. As to how he benched lulav, it was on my mind because I wrote that original post right after sukos but he did it like he did everything -- with full concentration and kavanah. He was fully present in every mitzvah he did. I remember when one of my kids was little she once said something to my dh about how Zaide washed for hamotzi, which he also did very carefully and deliberately, and dh said "you can learn everything you need to know about yiras shomayim from how Zaide washes." Again -- this was not a dramatic thing,with special knayches, just a mindset and an awareness of Hashem. And it didn't not preclude his enjoying chocolate cake, playing with the kids, or any other normal human activity. Baruch HaShem gedolim are just people.