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Can I borrow a cup of sugar?
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 19 2017, 6:50 am
amother wrote:
I hate to preach, but that was loshon hara which is at least as bad as her schnorring. You discussed her bad habits with your GF?!


Since the discussion was about a person with whom we had both experienced the same continual phenomenon at the same functions and was discussed in the context we wouldn't have lunch together with her and also was related to how to handle sharing expenses while eating out in different circumstances, I am not sure why this would not be a permissible private discussion between two people.

If I were proclaiming this character trait to the world or going around warning other people specifically about this woman, then it would be LH - idle malicious gossip. I have never discussed this phenomenon with anyone else in this circle of women - even on those occasions when I have gone out to eat with her and another person who she is a little afraid of and who INSISTS that the bills not be split evenly I have never after the fact brought up the reason why this more dominating woman behaves in this specific manner although it appears obvious to all of us why this is occurring.

And I am not sure how you can even have threads in which people add stories about people who have done this or that without it falling into your characterization. People never make judgments based on other's behavior and discuss that behavior discreetly? People never kvetch? People don't confide in close friends or spouses?
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 19 2017, 7:23 am
amother wrote:
Can someone explain this to me?
I know I've mentioned this a few times, but I just can't wrap my head around this.
Maybe not everyone can afford to give you a few eggs? Maybe for them 3 eggs is harder to give away than for you to give 100? Who sets this barometer for what is negligible and what isn't?


I would always give back 3 eggs, but then again, I hate to borrow things, or be in debt. For other people, its more of a back and forth that evens out.

But the person who makes the determination is you.

Amother, can I borrow 3 eggs?
I'm not going to be able to get to the market until Sunday, and I'll really need them tomorrow. Will you be able to get me back the eggs by then?

You've made your expectations clear. You want them back. Otherwise, it might be ambiguous with small(er) amounts.

In any case, OP is being taken advantage of. There's no back and forth, and the person is taking (not borrowing) an unreasonable amount. OP needs to end it.

OP, can I have a bag of sugar?
I can lend you a bag, but I'm going to need you to replace it by tomorrow.
But I'm not going to the store until next week!
I'm sorry. I can lend you a cup until next week, but you'll need to replace it then. I can't be out that much sugar any longer than a day.
Why? You usually don't bake on Friday.
I just can't.
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Dandelion1




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 19 2017, 9:06 am
SixOfWands wrote:
I would always give back 3 eggs, but then again, I hate to borrow things, or be in debt. For other people, its more of a back and forth that evens out.

But the person who makes the determination is you.

Amother, can I borrow 3 eggs?
I'm not going to be able to get to the market until Sunday, and I'll really need them tomorrow. Will you be able to get me back the eggs by then?

You've made your expectations clear. You want them back. Otherwise, it might be ambiguous with small(er) amounts.

In any case, OP is being taken advantage of. There's no back and forth, and the person is taking (not borrowing) an unreasonable amount. OP needs to end it.

OP, can I have a bag of sugar?
I can lend you a bag, but I'm going to need you to replace it by tomorrow.
But I'm not going to the store until next week!
I'm sorry. I can lend you a cup until next week, but you'll need to replace it then. I can't be out that much sugar any longer than a day.
Why? You usually don't bake on Friday.
I just can't.


Why tie yourself in knots? How about just saying "I'd love to help you out, but when you didn't return my dozen eggs last week I was in a bind because I needed them two days later for cooking and had no time to go shopping."
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Another mom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 19 2017, 10:04 am
zaq wrote:
Of course you have to return; that’s why it’s called “borrowing “. If you don’t intend to return it’s called “mooching” “sponging” “schnorring” and a host of other uncomplimentary terms.

exactly what I was going to say! If she says borrow it's halachically her obligaton to return it!
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amother
Indigo


 

Post Thu, Oct 19 2017, 10:21 am
Amarante wrote:
I don't think this is just restricted to borrowing eggs but also when you eat out.

I had lunch with a GF who I lunch with frequently and we were discussing a mutual shnorrer of a friend who insists on splitting a bill evenly even though consistently her bill is much higher since she drinks alcoholl at meals and we typically don't.

I worked with a woman who was constantly borrowing a dollar for the vending machine. She never remembered to pay it back and I always felt stupid asking her to repay a dollar. So finally when she asked for a dollar, I told her I only had $10 and gave it to her. That way I lent her the money but it was a large enough sum so that I didn't feel stupid asking for repayment. Of course, now with venmo, it's so much easier to repay small sums immediately - but that's another story.

I think if I am in a situation that "feels" mutual then I don't lend an egg or cup of milk with an expectation of getting back. However, in the situation that the OP states I would definitely feel abused and taken advantage of. I would probably just stop having anything to "lend" to her in the future.

But your neighbor is a shnorrer. I mean the behavior is normal for a shnorrer but only the most brazen and insensitive people want to be known as shnorrers. :-)


Hi, I found your post very informative and interesting, until, I arrived at the word -
schnorrer
.

Perhaps b/c I absolutely HATE labelling people with terms that have negative and hurtful connotations.

I'm trying to understand s/thing about your post.


Could you kindly explain the definition of a schnorrer from your p.o.v?

I'm very interested in reading your response.

Thank you.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 19 2017, 10:25 am
aleph wrote:
Why tie yourself in knots? How about just saying "I'd love to help you out, but when you didn't return my dozen eggs last week I was in a bind because I needed them two days later for cooking and had no time to go shopping."


Because my guess is that the person never used the word "borrow," and that it genuinely never occurred to her that she was expected to return or replace the goods. She needs to be educated, and specifically told the expectations.
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amother
Indigo


 

Post Thu, Oct 19 2017, 10:31 am
myname1 wrote:
My neighbors borrow a couple of eggs, a bag of milk, a cup of sugar... all the time, and almost always repay! If I don't have enough to wait a few days or go without, I say sorry, I don't have. Once in a while I ask until when if I know I'll need it the next day- one family returns within a couple of hours usually, another within a couple of weeks- with them I assume I won't get it back and only give if it's not too much to bother me. But I'm with a[b] bunch of Israelis in a big building, so I know it's different[/b].


I'm puzzled by your last sentence.
Kindly explain why with Israelis it is different than with a person of another nationality?

ty Smile
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browser




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 19 2017, 11:03 am
I think it's fine to "borrow" small amounts as long as it's mutual. I think its understood that u are not returning every egg or cup of flour. In this case though, if u needed it back by next morning u should have told her that.
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cbsp




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 19 2017, 12:37 pm
RebekahsMom wrote:
I had a neighbor that was a borrower. Thankfully she often returned items with a little extra- needed a cup of flour, bought a small bag to return. But the borrowing was constant. Drove me nuts.

I would never expect a half cup of milk back, on occasion. That’s being a decent neighbor (especially since this woman struggled). But an unopened canister? There’s no excuse for this! I would definitely ask.


This might be a serious case of ribbus. Seriously, ask your LOR.
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Seas




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 19 2017, 1:18 pm
The following is not to say the neighbor doesn't need to return the stuff, as if course she does. It's a nice story that gives a perspective worth keeping in mind.

I read it in a holocaust book about someone from German, though I'm fuzzy on the details. If I remember correctly at least one of the two people involved later became famous rabbonim.

Anyway, this guy (maybe he was still a teenager at the time) was walking in the street, when they were set upon by a gang of Hitler Jugend youths. The reshaim proceeded to beat up the two guys.

As they were lying there being kicked and beaten, one asked the other (who was always finding lessons in everything he saw), "Well, what can you learn from THIS?"

"It's better to give than to get!"
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 19 2017, 2:39 pm
amother wrote:
Hi, I found your post very informative and interesting, until, I arrived at the word -
schnorrer
.

Perhaps b/c I absolutely HATE labelling people with terms that have negative and hurtful connotations.

I'm trying to understand s/thing about your post.


Could you kindly explain the definition of a schnorrer from your p.o.v?

I'm very interested in reading your response.

Thank you.


I was using it in what I think was the classic definition - here's a dictionary definition

Slang. 1. a person who habitually borrows or lives at the expense of others with no intention of repaying; sponger; moocher; beggar. Origin of schnorrer - 1890-95; < Yiddish shnorer beggar, sponger, equivalent to shnor(n) to beg (compare Middle High German snurren to hum, buzz, whir; sense “beg” from beggars' custom of playing a small pipe or whistle ( German Schnurrpfeife))

Has schnorrer now assumed the same negative associations such as kike, N-gger or [slow person]? Very Happy Very Happy A shnorrer anti-defamation league perhaps? LOL LOL

I love Yiddish in that it has words that succinctly sum up a situation or personality. The English words require either many words or don't quite capture the essence. I've always described shnorrer to my non-Yiddish conversant friends as someone who brings a baggie to a smorgasbord. My friend once experienced this with her neighbor who had the chutzpah to come to her house the day after my friend threw a party and asked to take home some of the food - the female shnorrer is actually MORE affluent than my friend so it's not any question of needing the food - especially since she requested the most expensive leftovers. Rolling Eyes LOL LOL

Here's an interesting article which takes it back to the Talmud

https://www.huffingtonpost.com......html

Taking it back to the original post, at least in my opinion, a neighbor who habitually borrows large quantities of anything without ever returning or reciprocating is a shnorrer.
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amother
Honeydew


 

Post Thu, Oct 19 2017, 3:54 pm
Ruchel wrote:
I would never ask unless c'v emergency. I also don't get asked. It's foreign to me. I check my ingredients before starting. If I have to, I'll let a whatsapp or call before imposing myself. The same as, I won't open to a person if I'm not dressed and my house is unclean or whatever unless there's an emergency. I have asked and gotten help when I was leaving to give birth, had a flood... that's my type of emergency.


I think that your attitude is very cultural. You are from England, right?
In America people are generally more lax about boundaries. While they gain a certain intimacy with friends that maybe is harder for Europeans, they do need to learn to put the breaks on when stepping on someone's toes. I don't think the solution is to become every-man-for-himself-ers. Jews are connected and responsible for each other, and we have special mitzvos to give to each other. Sometimes being a taker is a good thing. It gives the giver an opportunity to do a mitzva, feel good about themselves, and forge a relationship.
As with everything, there needs to be moderation. There is a place to take, and there is a simultaneous need to practice respect and sensitivity.
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Thu, Oct 19 2017, 4:14 pm
I would be incredibly offended if my neighbor returned an egg or a cup of sugar.

Part of the joy of living in a community is having the opportunity to help others and to have others help you out when you need it.

It would never occur to me to offer to return a teaspoon of anything and if someone tried to return a teaspoon of salt to me I would worry about what else they are keeping track of.

When my kid played with their kids are they counting drinks provided? When we offer rides just to help out are they keeping track of who has driven more.

If someone borrowed a whole package of something, yes, it should be returned. But 1tsp?
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 19 2017, 7:20 pm
amother wrote:
I'm surprised how many posters are saying that a few eggs aren't expected to be given back. Why not?


In theory, neighbors are both givers and takers. So, I might borrow two eggs from you and you might need a cup of flour at a later date. For many neighbors it works out well, especially if you are mid recipe and realize you ran out. I always tell neighbors to keep it unless it's a full package of something. I rarely borrow stuff from my neighbors though (and they rarely ask me) so it isn't a big deal. If it were more frequently, I could see it being a problem.
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abound




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 19 2017, 8:25 pm
amother wrote:
I would be incredibly offended if my neighbor returned an egg or a cup of sugar.

Part of the joy of living in a community is having the opportunity to help others and to have others help you out when you need it.

It would never occur to me to offer to return a teaspoon of anything and if someone tried to return a teaspoon of salt to me I would worry about what else they are keeping track of.

When my kid played with their kids are they counting drinks provided? When we offer rides just to help out are they keeping track of who has driven more.

If someone borrowed a whole package of something, yes, it should be returned. But 1tsp?


Unless you specifically told them it is a gift, According to Halacha they HAVE to return it. I do not know why you would be offended if someone keeps the Torah. When they give your child a drink or invite you for a meal that is not a loan. So if you do not want the neighbors to return it, and even if you know they will not, tell them or it is a problem for them that they will have to suffer for in the next world. (even for a teaspoon) I always tell my neighbors not to worry about returning it. If they do fine but if they do not it will not be an issue for them.
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Thu, Oct 19 2017, 8:34 pm
abound wrote:
Unless you specifically told them it is a gift, According to Halacha they HAVE to return it. I do not know why you would be offended if someone keeps the Torah. When they give your child a drink or invite you for a meal that is not a loan. So if you do not want the neighbors to return it, and even if you know they will not, tell them or it is a problem for them that they will have to suffer for in the next world. (even for a teaspoon) I always tell my neighbors not to worry about returning it. If they do fine but if they do not it will not be an issue for them.


I am not sure you are that is correct.

If it is specified as a loan then it has to be repaid. If it is specified as a gift it doesn't. But in many cases it is not specified one way or the other. In that case it is not clear.

A giving of 1 tsp of salt without a designation of this is a loan, doesn't make it one. I haven't asked this specific sheilah, but if in general in the community you are in it would be considered a gift, if it is not designated then I think (willing to be told I'm wrong), that it didn't have to be returned.

Most of the time the language is normally, "do you have an egg?" There is no promise, or expectation of return.

I'll, bli neder, look it up in the morning and see if I can find a relevant discussion.
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