Custody and religion

southernbubby

Sun, Oct 29 2017, 9:21 pm

We have been discussing the fact that religious communities have the clout to hound OTD parents in family court and win custody battles. The LGBT community also has this representation and I believe has won against a religious parent.

Sometimes the OTD parent is the better parent and wins.

Sometimes the person who leaves the marriage fails to get an order of separation and appears to the court to have abandoned the family. This may cost that person custody. It is plausible that an OTD person is unaware of how to protect his or her custody rights and loss of custody may not be entirely religion based.

Sometimes the children can't respect the OTD parent, either because of what they have been taught about going OTD, parental alienation syndrome, or both.

I can't blame anyone who looks out for his or her own interests and am not sure any anyone would do otherwise. It is naïve to think that an ultra-Orthodox person should be willing to share custody with someone who is OTD or to say that these communities should be willing to become more tolerant. Maybe chocolate shouldn't have calories.

oliveoil

Sun, Oct 29 2017, 10:45 pm

southernbubby wrote:

I can't blame anyone who looks out for his or her own interests and am not sure any anyone would do otherwise.

I do. I blame parents who get all caught up in their own interests and ignore their children's best interests to further their own.

southernbubby wrote:

It is naïve to think that an ultra-Orthodox person should be willing to share custody with someone who is OTD or to say that these communities should be willing to become more tolerant. Maybe chocolate shouldn't have calories.

It happens, and more than you would think, but those cases are not the ones we hear about.

When the parents can put aside their own biases and recognize that their children's emotional health is the priority, it quickly becomes clear that contact with both parents is (almost always) the way to go.

I'm not one of those "children are resilient, they can handle anything" types, but I feel strongly (and have seen with several people close to me) that the damage and confusion that comes from being cut off from a parent is a lot more severe and long-reaching than that which comes from a parent living a different life.

Having said that, the parent who changes does need to acknowledge that they are the ones who have changed and take responsibility for the upheaval that's caused.

amother

Pink

Sun, Oct 29 2017, 10:59 pm

Often in the cases I know of the parent still keeps shabbos and kosher at home so their kids can live with them and they can share custody.

I think it's selfish for a parent to impose their non religious lifestyle or views on a child that for years was raised religiously.

But if one parent doesn't believe anymore, why should they have to live that way just got their kids? Is there no middle ground?

amother

Honeydew

Sun, Oct 29 2017, 11:12 pm

and if its two parents who choose not to be religious anymore - should they continue to raise kids in a religion they don't believe in any more?

Custody agreements hammer out this stuff through compromise. Most important thing is though - its between the parents, their lawyers and a judge. Everyone else needs to fade away.

amother

Teal

Sun, Oct 29 2017, 11:52 pm

There was a series on Israeli TV, I 'm not listing the name because and I'm not recommending it due to some highly off color material.

However, I found it quite interesting. The beginning is about a Chareidi woman with a son, her ex rides a motorcycle and comes to pick up the son dressed in black and white (but shirt not buttoned all the way & clearly not fitting in.) The Rov tells him they've decided he shouldn't come to pick up the boy, the Rov will bring the boy to his apartment. Where his roommate is female but he has other female friends.

The boy says I don't want you to wear a yarmulka when you see me, I want you to be yourself.

Boy ends up in hospital & father (brilliant though hasn't reached his potential) does research and helps save him.

Many other OTD kids he's involved with helping.

(Side stories: A friend who is way OTD shows up to her sister's lechaim dressed totally frum w sheitel & all and tells stories about being a mechaneches in England, all not to ruin her sister's shidduch.

She also at some point confronts the mechanech who abused her and is about to sign an agreement never to tell on him, for a lot of money. In the end she can't, because a young frum girl comes to talk to her & gets the courage to expose him.)

At some point wife tells him he never invited her on his journey, he just left. But they get back together and move to a more open or DL moshav where he can be accepted for who he is and she doesn't have the tznius police breathing down her back but she's able to stay frum.

I actually thought it was a beautiful story about love and meeting the other person.
Although again I am saying highly inappropriate for anyone who's makpid on what they watch.

southernbubby

Mon, Oct 30 2017, 12:53 am

oliveoil wrote:

Losing custody does not mean no contact. It means that parent could have visitation but won't share custody. I saw a case where the custodial parent was forced to drive the children for several hours each month so the kids could visit the other parent in jail, after the divorce. I also don't see children as endlessly resilient and I have seen children voluntarily end contact with a parent, but sometimes it is with a religious parent.

southernbubby

Mon, Oct 30 2017, 12:59 am

amother wrote:

I saw a couple who changed religions every couple of years and now a grandmother has custody and the kids have rejected the parents.

marina

Mon, Oct 30 2017, 2:18 am

Quote:

I can't blame anyone who looks out for his or her own interests and am not sure any anyone would do otherwise. It is naïve to think that an ultra-Orthodox person should be willing to share custody with someone who is OTD or to say that these communities should be willing to become more tolerant.

Maybe chocolate shouldn't have calories.

I just want to point out that some chocolate is much healthier than other. Lily's Chocolate, for example, has very few carbs and is prob healthier than almost any other chocolate.

So if you ever have to eat chocolate, opt for the one that is better. Don't just say hey, chocolate has calories so that's life.

Take from this psa what you will, nimshal included.

southernbubby

Mon, Oct 30 2017, 7:19 am

amother wrote:

not sure what your point is - though sounds like a couple who isn't all that stable.

My point is that even though a couple has the authority to change the status quo religion of the family, as opposed to party in a divorce who is ordered by the court to maintain the status quo, if they are unstable (which this couple is), they could lose custody. Their own children wanted protection from them.

southernbubby

Mon, Oct 30 2017, 7:31 am

marina wrote:

Quote:

By that same nimshal, there are times when it is preferable to give one parent primary custody rather than giving both parties joint physical custody.

LovesHashem

Mon, Oct 30 2017, 7:40 am

I know a few couples that a parent went OTD and the kids ended up very badly bruised. I think that if the parents are divorcing WITH the OTD, in most cases I've seen joint custody is a disaster. Even if ONE parent can put away their baises for the kid and not turn on the other, it's highly unlikely BOTH parents in such a situation stay sane, respectful, normal adults and don't turn on each other. I'm not saying it's not POSSIBLE, I'm just saying it's unlikely. I haven't seen it.

But I have read about a Moshav or yishuv or wtvr you want to call it in Israel with a few hundred families where one parent is frummer than the other, but the two stay married and compromise. In some of these families one parent is completely OTD. I'm not sure where it is or the name but it sounds like such a lovely place, I hope I can visit there some day. Gives you back your belief in mankind, these types of places and stories.

saw50st8

Mon, Oct 30 2017, 12:26 pm

amother wrote:

What if the kids are really young? A 3 and 1 year old don't really have an established religion. If the kids are older, they can express preference.

I think it's really selfish of a religious parent to separate their kids from their ex-spouse because of religious differences.

southernbubby

Mon, Oct 30 2017, 12:48 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

Sometimes other factors are involved. Insularity is also a factor. Visitation means a connection, even if it isn't joint custody.

saw50st8

Mon, Oct 30 2017, 1:18 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Sometimes other factors are involved. Insularity is also a factor. Visitation means a connection, even if it isn't joint custody.

Of course, if other factors are involved that are separate from religion, that's a different story. But if you are keeping or attempting to keep your child away from their other parent because of religious differences, then you are being selfish.