How do I guide my post-seminary daughter?

amother

Royalblue

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 12:55 am

It's all about what she doesn't want.

You need to make clear that you don't want an adult hanging around the house all day doing nothing. So she needs to figure out what she does want.

Period. I'm not generally a proponent of tough love, but this girl has zero motivation. Schedule an appointment with a therapist for her to help figure out what's wrong. Maybe she's depressed, maybe something else is holding her back.

And then, if the therapist agrees, tell her when she has to move out.

watergirl

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 3:45 am

You seem to be limiting her, I see it in your posts. Forget about a “college program” that you keep talking about, which sounds like one of those “frum college in a can” 2 year programs - the ones you see advertised in the back of mishpacha magazine - those are condensed and not at all the same as actual college and cost a fortune. Enroll her in COLLEGE. You seem to be missing information, based on your posts. You dont need extra thousands of dollars to spend, which you dont have. Your daughter can and should complete the forms for Federal Student Aid, called a Pell Grant (formerly FAFSA). Community college will cost peanuts. Lack of money is not a true reason to withhold a college education. Not any more. And not according to our government.

And if she isnt academic - so what? These canned college programs that you refer to are condensed and force the girls to work quickly. Community college, then state university is more reasonable, believe it or not.

You also seem to be limiting work options, by saying that there are no frum offices to work at. So what? Sitting around all day should not be an option. I’ve said it many times before - the best jobs that I’ve ever had were not in frum work places.

Even though she isnt thinking about dating now doesnt mean that she can pause her life. The time will come soon enough and she will have to have skills to earn a living. Letting her sit and watch DIY Youtube is not doing her any favors. Either school or work. 2 options.

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 7:01 am

If she's been home since June, it's only been about three months (plus the holiday month, which hardly counts). Consider it her summer vacation, a time to decompress and re-equilibrate after seminary. Having been in school her whole life, she probably didn't think twice about taking the summer "off." Very young adults don't start thinking like grownups-with-responsibilities automatically upon graduation. It's normal.

At twenty, some young adults are studying toward a specific profession or launching successful businesses, but many need more time and guidance to launch from the nest.

First, you say she is content to help around the house. That's great. Make sure her specific responsibilities are clearly defined, and appropriate for an adult contributing to the household.

Next, consider her mental health. She may simply be at loose ends, but her lack of motivation may suggest depression. Her physical health should be a priority as well. Having regular exercise, a balanced diet and enough sleep can do wonders. A private chat with her own doctor may be a good place to start. If she isn't already making her own health care appointments, she should learn how and be encouraged to take on this role for herself.

Learning to be self-sufficient is not optional, even if she intends to be a SAHM. How about negotiating a time frame for exploring her career options, perhaps six months, during which she should talk with people about their jobs. Find about about dental hygiene at her next routine appointment, chat with the caterer from the recent simcha, talk to the pharmacy tech when picking up a prescription, and so on. Perhaps she could set a goal of learning about a new profession every week, and start thinking about why (or why not) certain types of work appeal to her.

Do not dismiss community college so easily. Our offers extensive career counseling services, some available even before enrolling to help choose a course of study. You say she is "not academic." If she has a learning disability, community college is probably better equipped than most other places to help. If she simply doesn't enjoy academic subjects, community college is the most reputable and economical option for career training in many fields. Career aptitude testing may be available from social service agencies as well.

And yes, she should get a job, not necessarily in a "frum office." She could probably get hired at a retail store if she doesn't type or have other marketable skills. You never know where it will lead, and having a positive work history helps in many different ways. Volunteer work can be another way to gain skills, experience and connections. Sorry, I don't have time to write more about this now. I hope this helps!

amother

Silver

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 10:32 am

Op here:
Thank you again for all of your replies!

A few clarifications: We definitely aren't limiting her to frum college programs or office jobs. (Sorry if that is what you got from my posts!) The majority of programs I've looked into for her are regular online university degree and certificate programs. If she found something she loved and was excited about, then we'd figure out the cost. I know all about financial aid and the grants available. I worked in a university financial aid office for many years! I also have seen plenty of parents and students throw away tons of money when the student didn't know what they wanted to actually "do"! Enrolling her in a liberal arts or as undecided just doesn't seem wise. She isn't a great student, and really needs something practical that she is excited about. I hope that makes sense!

As for office work: I suggested a while back signing up with a temp agency to gain office experience, even in non-frum places, but she wasn't interested. I've also suggested applying at the different retail places in the area since malls and other shops always need extra workers this time of year. We live out of town, and the girls her age commute to frum cities for the weekdays and come home for Shabbos. She wasn't interested in doing that either. I've even suggested volunteer work at the library, hospital, schools (including the public ones) and nursing homes. Totally not interested.

I don't know how much to push her or let her decide on her own. As a 20 year old I was very driven to do everything, and had so many ideas of what I wanted to do. My parents didn't need to push me...I was just go, go, go. Do I push or let her make her own decisions?

watergirl

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 10:37 am

amother wrote:

Again. Community college to get prereqs out of the way. And to force her out of the house.

Fox

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 11:20 am

As more details emerge, it sounds like she could be suffering from a form of depression. If not, I can definitely see the possibility of that developing. Most 20-year-olds want more independence and like the idea of earning their own money. Your DD doesn't sound lazy -- she apparently is enormously helpful. So it sounds like she might be having difficulty getting past the fear, anxiety, and uncertainty everyone experiences at this stage of life.

I like the suggestion of consulting a career counselor initially. I can see it serving two purposes: (a) providing actual useful information about her strengths and the kind of work she might find most fulfilling; and (b) a way to send the message that hanging out all day watching YouTube videos is a pathology and needs to be addressed.

However, you might also consider finding a therapist who can help her verbalize and cope with whatever she's feeling. This kind of thing is actually something for which short-term therapy is very effective. As far as we know, there is no serious underlying trauma or personality issue; she just needs a little help getting unstuck.

While I'm leery of college-as-a-holding-pen, I have an additional concern in your DD's case. For young adults who have some level of anxiety about taking the leap into adulthood, college can be a socially-acceptable cop-out. They can stay in the familiar role of student for years, stringing out their adolescence without any social opprobrium.

Don't get discouraged, OP. While it is important that you not ignore the situation, this is a common enough problem that parents of all backgrounds and from around the world face it. They say, "kleina kinder, kleina tzures; groisa kinder, groisa tzures" for a reason!

amother

Silver

Mon, Dec 04 2017, 9:29 am

OP HERE: Well, here we are and my daughter is still not doing anything.

She spent a full week during November in an in-town community where a lot of her friends live and work. She wanted a cell phone for the week. So we told her she needed to tap into her savings account to pay for it. We weren't. The hope was that while she was there she'd speak to the girls, and network and hopefully figure out if she'd want to live there and work. She came back with an awful attitude about how the girls work and it just goes toward their room rentals and food, and they don't really save any money. I told her it's not just about saving money, but getting experience and actually DOING something not just sitting around the house. She didn't go for any of that.

She can't figure out even what types of college classes she wants to take.

I think though she is starting to realize that she wants things, and we aren't about to give her money. She recently wanted to visit a friend out of town. She needed to hire a driver, which would have been over $200 round trip. No way we were paying for that. So, we told her to use her savings again. She said she doesn't have enough, and our response was, well, then you just aren't going. We are not helping with that. It's time to look for a job. She eventually found a ride with a friend, but I think it was a good wake-up call for her to realize we aren't just giving her money.

Meanwhile, though, she's bored. With that boredom, she causes a lot of drama with her younger siblings. And I am totally drained. Having a third adult in the house who is bored, and uncooperative, and who just doesn't want to do anything, is just wearing me out. DH doesn't want to push her. I feel like we should give her a deadline of January 1st to figure out a job or schooling!

Fox

Mon, Dec 04 2017, 9:50 am

You're on the right track, though I'm not sure precisely how hard you want to hit the "January 1 or you're out" message. The problem is that you're not actually going to dump her stuff in the front yard and change the locks . . . and she knows it.

Nor am I necessarily sure you want to encourage her to dip into savings for incidental expenses. She doesn't appear to have the maturity to see the obvious problem with using her savings for routine expenses.

Has she been willing to meet with a career counselor or therapist? I think that may be the next best step at this point.

I would also encourage her to get a part-time job and go to school. Taking a few classes is not going to keep her sufficiently busy and focused. She needs to be up and out of the house between 9-5 or thereabouts.

SixOfWands

Mon, Dec 04 2017, 10:15 am

Fox wrote:

IMNSHO, you don't threaten kids unless you're going to follow through. Since I would never kick a kid out, absent a severely abusive situation, I'd never threaten it. And I don't think that OP should, either.

OP should tell her that they're not willing to provide her with anything more than the minimum funds (eg, I wouldn't tell her she needs to scrounge for tampons) unless she's actively looking for a job, she's in school, or she's otherwise looking to advance herself.

OP wrote:

Quote:

She spent a full week during November in an in-town community where a lot of her friends live and work. She wanted a cell phone for the week. So we told her she needed to tap into her savings account to pay for it. We weren't. The hope was that while she was there she'd speak to the girls, and network and hopefully figure out if she'd want to live there and work. She came back with an awful attitude about how the girls work and it just goes toward their room rentals and food, and they don't really save any money. told her it's not just about saving money, but getting experience and actually DOING something not just sitting around the house. She didn't go for any of that.

OP, your DD needs a reality check. Yes, we work. That's the real world. And for the most part, our salaries go to food and housing and other necessities. Its not all savings for extravagances. I'm not sure how she got past high school without learning this, but she needs to learn it now.

amother

Silver

Mon, Dec 04 2017, 10:25 am

OP here: A few clarifications...I didn't mean give her a deadline, and if she doesn't meet it we'd kick her out. That's harsh. I just think she needs a set time-frame to find something to do. Don't exactly know what we'd do if she doesn't meet it...but if we do decide on a deadline I would kind of hope she'd take it seriously enough to find something to do.

As for her savings...no I'd rather she not dip into her savings. However, it's the only money she has. We aren't paying for a cell phone for her. We aren't paying for drivers for her to see her friends. Things cost money, and she needs to see she has to earn that money. She is living rent free, she has all her basic needs covered. But, no, I am not paying for the fancy boots she wants for the winter. A basic Walmart pair is what we can afford.

Fox

Mon, Dec 04 2017, 10:37 am

amother wrote:

She seems.. scared?

I get this vibe, too, but maybe I'm making assumptions without any basis. But I also know there is no animal that fights harder than a scared animal, and kids of all ages often fall into that category. Sometimes their most obstinate behavior is really fight-or-flight in the face of a perceived threat.

I'm curious, OP, what has your DD said recently about her long-term goals? Does she talk about getting married at some point in the future? Does she have any consuming hobbies? You mentioned that she likes watching DIY videos; does she do any projects herself? Does she have any dreams, no matter how impractical, that motivate her?

amother

Silver

Mon, Dec 04 2017, 10:50 am

Fox wrote:

OP here: She doesn't really like to talk about anything long-term. In seminary, she hated all the classes when they would talk about "life goals". She'd call up crying that she didn't understand why they would talk about life so much. I tried very hard to encourage her to listen to the classes because they'd be giving good advice on short term and long term goals. As for marriage, she wants to get married someday, but doesn't like talking about dating or marriage, and gets upset whenever it's mentioned. Since she's the oldest I don't even know what to do. I got married young and was excited to date and get married as soon as possible after school.

She really only watches the videos...she never puts anything into action. She occasionally reads, but really doesn't like to. I'm telling you....she is just hanging around the house doing absolutely nothing except getting annoyed at her younger siblings and causing all sorts of drama.

allthingsblue

Mon, Dec 04 2017, 11:36 am

amother wrote:

To me, it seems she'd benefit from seeing a therapist so she can address whatever fears or anxieties are underlying.