Is cleaning help a necessity or luxury

icebreaker

Thu, Nov 02 2017, 10:01 pm

Yah it's definitely a luxury. I've never had cleaning help. Started my kids picking up after themselves early on and then chores came. I tell my kids that we all live here and so it is all of our job to keep the house (well, apartment lol) tidy. It doesn't have to be sparkling clean. My home looks lived in. It doesn't look like a magazine cover and I'm okay with that. The only time of year I really stress about cleaning is Pesach for obvious reasons.

onlyone

Thu, Nov 02 2017, 11:56 pm

yehudis1056 wrote:

Sometimes "daddy" works extremely long hours and is not available for hmwk or baths or to clean or cook dinner. My husband is one of them. Bh no I'm not a single mom I am happily married but he is simply not available. Don't assume just cuz someone isn't a single mother that a husband is always able to pitch in.

Exactly! thank you amother. My husband works extremely long hours all the time, about 65-75 or more hours a week. He has no time to help with homework, laundry, dishes, baths, cleaning or cooking, or even tidying up. I dont work due to having a serious disablity. Due to it, especially the depression and ADHD part ( I have multiple mental health and neurological diagnoses), I am unable to keep up with the housework, I do what I can. But we cant afford cleaning help. So we live in a fairly messy house and while I dont like it, there is not much I can do. When I am more well, I can do a bit more cleaning and can keep up with the laundry better. Is cleaning help a necessity? No, but it would make my life much easier.

debsey

Fri, Nov 03 2017, 12:08 am

oliveoil wrote:

You are spoiled.

Why can't we all fargin.

She's lucky. Most of us don't have that level of help or lack of need.

Personally, I work more than full time, I have kids in the double digits, including one with special needs, and chronic health conditions of my own. Aside from that, even the kids without special needs all have things they need - doctor appts, dentist, orthodontist, tutoring, OT, etc. I feel like my biggest logistical hurdle is getting everywhere where they need to be, when they need to be there, with all the stuff they need to bring!

Oh, and elderly parents living in assisted living nearby who need my help a lot as well.

I have a full-time housekeeper who also helps with my younger two, so they don't go out to a babysitter.

Without her, I'd cease to function. There's simply no way I can both be running my business and ironing a kid's shirt or cleaning a toilet at the same time. It doesn't even make financial sense for me to do that. As it is, I'm frequently at the medical specialist with my father while running my business on my phone, which is barely logistically possible.

This was hard won wisdom that took me years to acquire. I am not Superwoman. I cannot do it all myself. Since I can't hire someone to run my business, and I have no interest in hiring someone to do all the 'mommy things', someone has to clean.

Oh, and my husband? Aside from learning 3 sedarim a day and doing a lot of the childcare, all the Hebrew homework with everyone, bath time most nights etc, he also works in the business. He's probably busier than I am, which is saying something.

I don't really care what others think, that's not why I'm posting this -

But I'll say this -for young mothers out there, don't be stupid like I was. I thought I was managing without cleaning help for years, and all I did was ruin my health, and at one point, put myself into a really medically dangerous situation. Get help and be a calm mother to your kids. It's the best thing you'll ever do.

amother

Burgundy

Fri, Nov 03 2017, 12:22 am

debsey wrote:

In your case, cleaning help enables a lifestyle in which the husband isn't working. That itself is a luxury.

skee

Fri, Nov 03 2017, 12:27 am

amother wrote:

In your case, cleaning help enables a lifestyle in which the husband isn't working. That itself is a luxury.

Huh? Her needing cleaning help has nothing to do with her husband learning. (Besides that she did say he works in the business.) He seems to help out a considerable amount and if he worked full time instead of learning she would probably need even more hired help.

amother

Burgundy

Fri, Nov 03 2017, 12:38 am

skee wrote:

I'm glad she has help. Really, truly. It sounds like the best thing for her circumstances. If the husband were working full time, she might not need to work so many hours (as they are managing now) and therefore would not need so much help.

Taking men out of the labor force is a lifestyle decision that comes with consequences, one of which is an increased need for household help because the women who might otherwise have time and energy for cleaning are otherwise occupied. Is that such a revelation?

amother

Fuchsia

Fri, Nov 03 2017, 12:43 am

amother wrote:

I'm completely not getting your train of thought. So, if her dh was working full time, and she was working full time, then suddenly she wouldn't need a housekeeper? If they wer e both working full time, then things would be easier to manage? There's something here I'm missing.

debsey

Fri, Nov 03 2017, 12:50 am

amother wrote:

In your case, cleaning help enables a lifestyle in which the husband isn't working. That itself is a luxury.

we once figured out that if I'd have to hire someone to do everything my husband does in the business, we'd have to hire two full-time employees. So yeah, my husband works. He just happens to do it in his spare time, because his primary career and job is learning in Yeshiva.

I know, just to satisfy your prejudices about kollel guys, maybe I should fire my cleaning help and do it all myself, which means my business will fold. Then I can ask my husband to leave Yeshiva and work for half of what he's worth at one of my competitors! That sounds so logical, thanks for that advice.

If my husband had a job w set hours, I'd probably need to hire a second cleaning person. This way, he and I can tag-team duties. What job would allow him to do all the mid-afternoon pickups? Or work w me to get all the kids on their busses (which arrive fr 7 am all the way till 915 am) and drive carpool to kindergarten at 930?

Don't be so open minded your brains fall out! A kollel lifestyle can be made to work with some good old fashioned teamwork.

And sorry, but Torah is not a luxury! For us, it's a very, very hard-won necessity.

amother

Burgundy

Fri, Nov 03 2017, 12:52 am

amother wrote:

They are not both working full time in this scenario. She's working full time. He's working part time and learning. If the situation were reversed, with him working full time and her working part time, she would probably not be learning all day and would have more time for homemaking.

It's none of my business how someone arranges her life. Let me say it again. I'm happy that this poster has the help she needs for her life to function.

I'm simply pointing out that a husband who is busy all day but not earning money or running the home makes it likely that the family is going to need paid cleaning help. Everyone has the right to make that choice. It comes at a cost. The luxury of a non-working husband (or the unpleasant reality of single parenthood, or illness, for that matter) pushes cleaning help from the luxury column to the near-necessity column.

ETA: Debsey, I see you posted while I was typing. I don't recall saying anything negative about kollel. It is a choice that requires sacrifices. One of those is that someone needs to clean house and it's less likely to be the wife if she's also the main breadwinner. I'm not bashing you or your choices at all.

debsey

Fri, Nov 03 2017, 12:57 am

amother wrote:

I think she's saying that then I could work less hours. But I run a business! That's just not how it works. It's not like I'm a shift worker and if my husband earned more I could take less shifts. When you run a business, you go where the clients are and you do what the clients need done. If the busy season coincides w yom tov, too bad! That's just not how it works when you're the boss. When you're the boss, you have a zillion bosses - each client - and you do your best to keep them happy or you close! It's kind of naive and simplistic to say "so work less."

I still say to any entrepreneurial women out there - make sure to line up help. It is not a luxury.

amother

Fuchsia

Fri, Nov 03 2017, 1:01 am

amother wrote:

Her husband IS working , and he's helping out at home as well!

And I thought that earlier posters have established that there are plenty of single moms who manage just fine without help? So for them it's a luxury, but for this kollel couple it's a near necessity?

debsey

Fri, Nov 03 2017, 1:03 am

amother wrote:

thanks for the clarification. I'm not posting to justify my choices. I'm quite happy w my life and very comfortable w my choices. I'm posting for any young mother out there who wants to try to start a business and manage without cleaning help. Get yourself help. It's the best investment you can make. Don't tell yourself it's a luxury because it's not.

skee

Fri, Nov 03 2017, 1:09 am

amother wrote:

Actually, it is a revelation to me (not that I think what you are saying is necessarily accurate anyway). Pretty much all the many people I know whose husbands were in kollel and later working had WAY more help from their husbands when the husbands were in kollel than they do now that their husbands are working. Their husbands had time on Fridays, were able to pick the kids up from school or run errands during their break, were home to get the kids off to school in the morning etc. And I can't think of even one person I know who worked less when her husband left kollel. Their husbands went to work because their families grew and they needed more income (especially if they were buying a house), but they still needed her income as well. IME it is far more common for people to need cleaning help when their husband is working than when he is in kollel.

amother

Periwinkle

Fri, Nov 03 2017, 2:59 am

amother wrote:

1) How many of these single moms are MANAGING and how many are just surviving? I wouldn't call it a luxury for them either, unless they have tons of free time and lead very relaxed lives, in which case a bit of housekeeping will do them good.

2) Is it inconceivable that just as some can bake bread daily and others must resort to buying, that some can clean efficiently and some... just... can't? Do you also change the oil in your own car, snake your own toilets, repair your own windows, teach your own children? You know, you COULD. A cleaning lady is a service provider, and for some of us it makes more sense to pay her $15 per hour to do in 4 hours what would take us 16.

3) What does Kollel have to do with this, aside for a potentially smaller household income? There are plenty of families with both parents working, both with and without cleaning help. Does it make so much of a difference if the husband's "work" is in front of a Gemara instead of in front of a computer screen?

Raisin

Fri, Nov 03 2017, 5:45 am

In response to some of the bashing here - mother with full time nanny and 10 hours of cleaning help. Good for you!!! If I had lots of money, I'd probably spend it on that rather then expensive cars or yachts or vacations or over the top simchas. Sure, rich people have lots of great things we'd all like.

Debsey, you sound like you have a great balance. If your husband wasn't in kollel and he would be playing golf or whatever he would say he was working full time and playing golf as a hobby.

We all outsource certain things...who here buys ready made challa, pizza, cakes and cookies? I make most of that myself but I don't think people who buy it (but maybe spend more time cleaning their kitchens instead of hiring cleaning help) are spoiled. When you buy a challa you are paying someone else to make it.