Couples Meals | Imamother

amother

White

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 11:49 am

amother wrote:

But you have lost out. You have lost out on the opportunity to develop and grow a better self. Hashem didn't command us to avoid the other relations (except for Yichud), the Torah actually gives us guidelines how to behave around the other relations. Not learning how to do just that, stifles your internal growth. It says - "I'm not strong enough to do what the Torah says, to work on myself, rise above challenges, so I'll just insert fences and blockades to ensure that I don't transgress."

If you would have read my post carefully, you would've seen that I wrote that we followed "our Rebbeim." How counterproductive would it be to ignore our Rebbeim in order to grow??? The torah and those well versed in it are my guides, NOT emotions!

amother

Aqua

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 12:01 pm

amother wrote:

That leads back to my original statement:

"From my perspective, it appears that the Chassidish/Yeshivish lifestyles has little faith or no trust in human's psyche. It it automatically assumed that a person will fail any nisyanos placed before him, so they implement stringency upon stringency to prevent that from happening. The other communities do seem to be aware of the 'danger', but rather provide the tools how to manage the situation or adjust your behavior so that you don't go against Halacha. "

And thats one issue of contention I have with the Chassidish/Yeshivish communities. I was born and raised in that community, and I find this concept very irking. I believe I am not that weak! I would like the opportunity to grow and rise above challenges! I would like to fulfill my purpose in this world, and create a better self! I want to work on myself and not run from situations. I believe I can conquer my evil natures by following the Torah guidelines and after 120 be proud of myself! I don't want to return my neshama with the same status quo it was given to me. By not allowing situations to present itself, all you ARE doing is maintaining the status quo. True, you're not taking a step backwards, neither are you taking a step forward. You haven't conquered anything! All you're doing is ensuring that you don't fall. I want to do more!

DrMom

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 12:13 pm

NewbeeMom wrote:

Think about a time that you were not able to look so pretty (I.e. 'm' night on friday night)....
Now imagine that you invited over a couple and the wife is dressed to the nines, all made up, stunning sheitel, heels and all... Don't you think your dh will have a little bit of a hard time with that?

It doesn't need to be such a dramatic contrast, even if you just had a rushed friday and you didn't get to apply a full face of makeup, the last thing you need is for the wife of the couple your eating with to look perfect.

So, no, I've never done couple meals. And honestly, it's safer that way.

In my community, we don't generally dress in "stunning" sheitels and heavy make-up and heels. People dress more simply. It would come off as kind of pretentious to dress that way in my community.

It is interesting that many of the communities most concerned about mixing with the opposite gender dress in the most sxualized way.

pesek zman

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 12:13 pm

NewbeeMom wrote:

People don't have guests over on Mikvah night

Use some common sense people

I almost never wear a full face of makeup only perhaps to weddings) and somehow my husband still manages to be faithful and loving to me, no matter what our guests or his coworkers are wearing, saying or doing

I have to add, when speaking of comparisons, we better stop having our single friends over too.

I just cannot relate to this way of thinking, that in order for our husbands to tow the line or our marriages to be strong we have to isolate ourselves

Notsobusy

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 12:14 pm

NewbeeMom wrote:

Perhaps you don't understand the ramifications of calling people by their first names. At work, my boss always tells me to address clients by their first names. He says that it makes them feel like you are on their side... There is a lot of phsychology behind calling someone by a first name. Proven and all.

I don't understand what you think the ramifications may be, feeling like you're on the same side is not a bad thing. I think you are hinting to it creating a feeling of intimacy between you, which I don't agree with. To me using Mr and Mrs just turns it into this awkward thing every time we have to address each other.

Notsobusy

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 12:16 pm

pesek zman wrote:

People who don't invite couples, will NEVER invite single friends. They may invite his single friends, but definitely not hers.

Boca00

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 12:18 pm

amother wrote:

You're saying this as if it is a cop out to live a Yeshivish lifestyle. I have never heard anyone claim that before. I do hear what point you are trying to make.

It's not as though making fences is easy; in fact in can be harder to explain why I can't shake Dr. Joe's hand than to just shake it. It can be harder to tell a friend that I don't want to go to a movie with her and her DH than to just go. It's not that Yeshivish people aren't challenging themselves, just that we are challenging ourselves differently to avoid stickier situations.

But if you really want to challenge yourself, you can go to a movie alone with your friend's husband, go out to eat with him, talk to him intimately for a few hours, even go on a weeklong vacation with him (separate hotel rooms ofc)... And then don't think about him at all in an inappropriate way or ever think of touching him or let it interfere with your SB in the slightest. That's a challenge I personally would feel "too weak" to risk. But maybe you're a stronger person and you enjoy very hard challenges more than I do.

Meanwhile, I'll just draw the line where my Rabbi feels it's appropriate.

DrMom

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 12:19 pm

NewbeeMom wrote:

BTW, in most companies in Israel, everyone uses first names. From the CEO down to the person who cleans the toilets.

Calling someone "Mr. Goldberg" instead of "Eitan" is insulting. It almost sounds as if you dislike him and are actively working to put distance between you. It can be interpreted very negatively.

amother

White

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 12:20 pm

amother wrote:

I trust my mentors, whose wisdom is torah based, to have a far better understanding of the human psyche and of the yetzer hora than I, or any other layman. Just like despite the nisayon of riches seeming like such a comfortable one, I would never ask for it, so too I do not ask for other nisyonos. Who are we kidding? Take one look at the world out there. The nisyonos are mind boggling, expecially in the area of giluy arayos.

amother

Aqua

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 12:28 pm

Boca00 wrote:

It is a cop out to a certain extent, I'm sorry if you don't want to hear it that way. Preventing challenges is a cop-out imo. There are some Rabbi's that would rather prevent trangressions that allowing opportunities for growth (andof course failures) - and if you are in agreement and that brings about your connections to the Torah and Mitzvohs, then by all means follow their guidelines. That doesn't mean though that its the ideal way to accomplish what we are meant to do in this world.

And by painting a scenario that's against halacha, you are weakening your statement. I specifically mentioned that overcoming challenges is done by following Torah guidelines - not abdicating them. The Torah gives us guidelines against specifically scenario that you created - Yichud, so there's no way you can put yourself into that position by following the Torah. The Torah does give me guidelines for human interactions with the other genders in workplaces, sharing meals and so on. By following those, I will make myself a better person.

Instead of returning my neshama to Hashem and say "Look, I didn't dirty this up at all, I maintained it perfectly", I would love to return my neshama to Him and say "Look at how I enhanced and beautified the soul that you gave me".

Boca00

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 12:30 pm

amother wrote:

Wait a second, there's no yichud there. I purposely chose something that is not against halacha according to the letter of the law.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 12:32 pm

DrMom wrote:

DrMom, just so you know, in charedi companies, its really not like that. I worked in a charedi company about 10 years ago. we all called all of the women by their first names, but the 3 men that worked inthe office were called mr this and mr that. I always found it weird. But it is how its done, even in israel, if the charedi community.

amother

Aqua

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 12:37 pm

Boca00 wrote:

Wait a second, there's no yichud there. I purposely chose something that is not against halacha according to the letter of the law.

Seriously? Grasping at straws? Going to a move "alone", "Eating out just the two of you", etc.. "letter of the law". Again - I said follow the Torah guidelines, which include NOT putting yourself into that situation, and using standard precautions / fences (as previously mentioned) in other NORMAL human situations.

The Torah tells us NOT to put ourselves into the situation you described, but does give us advice how to behave in NORMAL human interaction states - I.e. workplaces, shared meals and so on. The Torah is not telling us to avoid sharing meals, and segregate ourselves completely.