Gun Control - spin off

amother

Violet

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 11:59 am

One of the reasons my parents had guns, and taught all their children how to use them, is because they felt strongly that if Jews in Europe had had guns the Holocaust might not have happened -- at least not to the extent that it did -- (they are both children of survivors) and wished that self-defense, including gun instruction, would be taught in every yeshiva.

I don't know for sure that they are right -- but at the same time I am uneasy with Jews being willing to put guns only in the hands of authorities. I feel that my right to own a gun and protect my family is very important to me. As anti-semitism has become fashionable again, I feel it even more so.

Thoughts?

SixOfWands

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 12:07 pm

amother wrote:

First tell me why you think that gun control legislation means that you would not be able to own a gun.

That's the old NRA chestnut -- registration will lead to confiscation; oppose all legislation. But there's no basis to believe its true.

water_bear88

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 12:09 pm

I honestly hear you; to me, though, the natural answer is to live somewhere where the authorities carrying the weapons are themselves Jewish. Where though we don't currently have any weapons in the house nor plans to apply for one, I'm happy my husband and my neighbors' husbands know how to use a weapon in necessary, and several in the neighborhood do have weapons. I'd check that weapons are safely stored, though, before letting my kids play at those homes.

MagentaYenta

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 12:15 pm

I'm a lifetime gun owner and I would like to see the end to the sales of AR15s and similar weapons. I believe in fully registered gun ownership, but I know it's impossible.

amother

Mustard

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 12:26 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Hmm: Hitler in 1935
This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"

shock

MagentaYenta

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 12:35 pm

amother wrote:

You do realize that for guns to be seized by our govt. they would have to have the personnel to go door to door? Do you not realize that there are millions of guns in the US that aren't registered. How do you think the govt is going go and find those guns? How is this going to be accomplished in the face of the gun lobby, NRA and weapons manufacturers?

(I'll delve a bit into your counterfactual posit. We have no way of knowing if the Jews had sufficient arms and ammo to actually defeat the Nazi's. If you want to pursue this line of 'reasoning' start another thread.)

Sadie

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 12:38 pm

amother wrote:

Can you explain how gun registration could lead to Hitler's rise and the Holocaust?

SixOfWands

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 12:51 pm

Sadie wrote:

Can you explain how gun registration could lead to Hitler's rise and the Holocaust?

It couldn't.

Besides the fact that the Nazis actually loosened gun restrictions that had been imposed by the Weimar Republic. And there were a lot of unregistered firearms to begin with.

But if someone wants to believe that a few Jews with guns could have defeated tanks and howitzers, they can go right ahead.

But I will agree that if the US government ever starts requiring me to register my religion, I'll rethink my loyalty to the country. In the meantime, I'll support gun control.

southernbubby

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 1:26 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

The partisans did survive, partially because they were armed.

southernbubby

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 1:31 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

Not only go door to but check every nook and cranny.

MagentaYenta

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 1:38 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Not only go door to but check every nook and cranny.

Yea first you need to find cosmoline, and then clean and wrap all of your weapons, find some airtight containers...Are they really gonna dig up my garden? LoL

Mommyg8

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 2:03 pm

I think that amother violet has an excellent point, and this is probably the reason the founding fathers wrote the Second Amendment to begin with.

For those who say - how would guns be able to work against tanks and howitzers - the reality is that even if SOME more Jews would have survived, that would have been that many more Jews who would have survived.

In any case, when the Germans came into towns and villages, they mostly used guns and dogs. If the Jews would have had their own guns, it most certainly would have been a deterrent - perhaps not foverever, but it would have definitely slowed things down.

southernbubby

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 2:37 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Read the story of Tuvia Belsky who led the partisans. They were luckily able to steal some guns and that helped them protect themselves in the forests and when the war ended, around 1400 souls left the forest to begin their free lives. There was even a nursery in the partisan camp by the end of the war.

Sadie

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 2:46 pm

Gun registration and gun confiscation are not the same thing. Blaming the broader concept of gun control for what happened to the Jews in Germany shows a real failure to understand what the problem was. The Nazis confiscated all types of Jewish property- do we now in 2017 cease to register cars? Deeds to our houses? Income tax forms? Passports? If the US government starts selectively confiscating property from and discriminating against Jews, we have a big problem and gun control ain't it. If that happens, leave the country and don't try to defend your castle.

Mommyg8

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 2:50 pm

Sadie wrote:

But in Germany, the Jews had the option to leave. The Jews of Poland, Hungary, Russia, and Lithuania didn't. Guns would have been a good thing to have.

Sadie

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 2:59 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

But in Germany, the Jews had the option to leave. The Jews of Poland, Hungary, Russia, and Lithuania didn't. Guns would have been a good thing to have.

They couldn't leave because their passports or visas were confiscated or canceled. Do you support now ceasing all government regulation of passports and visas?

Mommyg8

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 3:03 pm

Sadie wrote:

They couldn't leave because their passports or visas were confiscated or canceled. Do you support now ceasing all government regulation of passports and visas?

What??!! Of course they were able to leave! I know this for a fact!

Sadie

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 3:13 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

What??!! Of course they were able to leave! I know this for a fact!

I think you misread or misunderstood what I wrote. I was responding directing to your assertion that certain Jews didn't have the option of leaving and that therefore it would have been good for them to have had guns.

MagentaYenta

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 3:32 pm

southernbubby wrote:

The partisans did survive, partially because they were armed.

Far more were lost. 'There Once Was a World' by Yaffa Eliach gives some heartbreaking first hand accounts. Her accounts of her own survival and that of other family and friends in Lithuania before and during WW2 is an eye opening read.

southernbubby

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 3:34 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

many who died were because of the cold, starvation, and disease which no amount of ammunition would have prevented