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Gun Control - spin off
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 07 2017, 6:40 pm
southernbubby wrote:
many who died were because of the cold, starvation, and disease which no amount of ammunition would have prevented


I certainly agree, but the partisans were not arms rich and defensively there wasn't much they could do. Yaffa recounts living with partisans in the woods and weapons were seriously lacking,no less ammo or the lead and powder needed to for ammo. Most of the accounts of partisans in her book are pretty clear, and most were slaughtered at the hands of the enemy.

ETA: I would think that the Jews in the country had greater access to weapons than those in the city.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 07 2017, 6:53 pm
MagentaYenta wrote:
I certainly agree, but the partisans were not arms rich and defensively there wasn't much they could do. Yaffa recounts living with partisans in the woods and weapons were seriously lacking,no less ammo or the lead and powder needed to for ammo. Most of the accounts of partisans in her book are pretty clear, and most were slaughtered at the hands of the enemy.

ETA: I would think that the Jews in the country had greater access to weapons than those in the city.


But then that blows a hole in the argument that the average armed person (then or now) can save himself or herself in a heavily armed confrontation. Some of these mass murderers stockpile and seem to be able to do so very easily.
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 07 2017, 6:56 pm
southernbubby wrote:
...Some of these mass murderers stockpile and seem to be able to do so very easily.


All it takes is money.
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Tue, Nov 07 2017, 7:21 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
It couldn't.

Besides the fact that the Nazis actually loosened gun restrictions that had been imposed by the Weimar Republic. And there were a lot of unregistered firearms to begin with.

But if someone wants to believe that a few Jews with guns could have defeated tanks and howitzers, they can go right ahead.

But I will agree that if the US government ever starts requiring me to register my religion, I'll rethink my loyalty to the country. In the meantime, I'll support gun control.


They first required all guns to be registered. 1935. Then they denied Jews from owning them. About 1938. THEN they loosened them for the rest of the population. So in the end no Jews could fight back.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 08 2017, 5:09 am
One of the reasons my family doesn't like guns is seeing what you can do with them. They're not less than (cool, fun) because of it. No one is going to be convinced otherwise.
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amother
Cyan


 

Post Wed, Nov 08 2017, 7:38 am
When my sons were sworn in to the IDF their survivor grandparents cried tears of joy at the sight of Jews who could defend themselves. And they weren't the only ones.
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Wed, Nov 08 2017, 8:49 am
Ruchel wrote:
One of the reasons my family doesn't like guns is seeing what you can do with them. They're not less than (cool, fun) because of it. No one is going to be convinced otherwise.


So I guess they don't fly on planes after 9/11?
It was bigger than any one "nutcase with a gun" incident.
And knives. I hope they got rid of every single one in their home! Think about Palestinian and worldwide terror that happens with just a knife. How many crimes are committed daily with one of those!?!?
Do they swim? Walk near rivers or swimming pools?
Do they drive? Do they know how many people die each year from car related accidents? And how many are maimed? Way more than gun violence.

It isn't the inanimate object. It is the user.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 08 2017, 9:06 am
amother wrote:
So I guess they don't fly on planes after 9/11?
It was bigger than any one "nutcase with a gun" incident.
And knives. I hope they got rid of every single one in their home! Think about Palestinian and worldwide terror that happens with just a knife. How many crimes are committed daily with one of those!?!?
Do they swim? Walk near rivers or swimming pools?
Do they drive? Do they know how many people die each year from car related accidents? And how many are maimed? Way more than gun violence.

It isn't the inanimate object. It is the user.


Want to call them?
You (and I) can't imagine how it is. Comparing it with drowning accidents, or cars, is crazy. Most people don't go swimming or driving thinking they may need to kill someone with their car or pool. Again, want to call them? Want me to tell them that an anonymous person hiding online said their vision of their life during the Holocaust is wrong? Odd.
(ftr there are people who go through a plane accident, bh survive, and then aren't willing to fly again, but it's not like a whole Holocaust).

I've decided I'm not going on discussing this with "non people", so I won't be replying any more to anonymous. Edited to say this.
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Wed, Nov 08 2017, 9:15 am
Ruchel wrote:
Want to call them?
You (and I) can't imagine how it is. Comparing it with drowning accidents, or cars, is crazy. Most people don't go swimming or driving thinking they may need to kill someone with their car or pool. Again, want to call them? Want me to tell them that an anonymous person hiding online said their vision of their life during the Holocaust is wrong? Odd.
(ftr there are people who go through a plane accident, bh survive, and then aren't willing to fly again, but it's not like a whole Holocaust).


It is the same thing. There are people out there who do get into their car with the intention of killing as many people as possible. Car ramming attacks in Israel? We just had one here in the USA. The guy rented a car and drove it down a bike path in NY in a crowded park. Killed a number of people.
A person who leaves their pool unlocked is just waiting for an accident to happen. No one must get hurt but drownings happen. We hear about several every summer. So why do we allow people to have pools at home? (And ban rivers and lakes. No boating allowed). They obviously can't be trusted to be safe with them.
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Wed, Nov 08 2017, 9:22 am
How convenient to not reply to amother. I cannot be under my SN as it will out my SN. I am a huge 2A supporter and have spoken out about this IRL. I know a lot more about using guns then you and most on here likely.
I will think it highly hypocritical if you start to reply to any amother on imamother in the future. Otherwise you are doing it just when you can't refute my facts and engage in a logical discourse.
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youngishbear




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 08 2017, 9:32 am
amother wrote:
So I guess they don't fly on planes after 9/11?
It was bigger than any one "nutcase with a gun" incident.
And knives. I hope they got rid of every single one in their home! Think about Palestinian and worldwide terror that happens with just a knife. How many crimes are committed daily with one of those!?!?
Do they swim? Walk near rivers or swimming pools?
Do they drive? Do they know how many people die each year from car related accidents? And how many are maimed? Way more than gun violence.

It isn't the inanimate object. It is the user.


Please tell me which of your many examples have only one purpose, that of killing, like a gun does.

(I'm sure you can find other uses for guns, such as cracking nuts.)

I'm all for "the internet is a tool" arguments, but it just doesn't work when the tool was created with the intent to kill.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 08 2017, 3:45 pm
amother wrote:
So I guess they don't fly on planes after 9/11?
It was bigger than any one "nutcase with a gun" incident.
And knives. I hope they got rid of every single one in their home! Think about Palestinian and worldwide terror that happens with just a knife. How many crimes are committed daily with one of those!?!?
Do they swim? Walk near rivers or swimming pools?
Do they drive? Do they know how many people die each year from car related accidents? And how many are maimed? Way more than gun violence.

It isn't the inanimate object. It is the user.


If gun and their owners were as government-regulated as cars and planes and their owners, I don't think you would be a happy camper, though.

In other words, even if it is the user, not the object, we as a society, still need to regulate both for safety.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 08 2017, 3:53 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
I think that amother violet has an excellent point, and this is probably the reason the founding fathers wrote the Second Amendment to begin with.

For those who say - how would guns be able to work against tanks and howitzers - the reality is that even if SOME more Jews would have survived, that would have been that many more Jews who would have survived.

In any case, when the Germans came into towns and villages, they mostly used guns and dogs. If the Jews would have had their own guns, it most certainly would have been a deterrent - perhaps not foverever, but it would have definitely slowed things down.


I don't really understand the Second Amendment's militia clause, as applied nowadays.

Which militia is going to be protected by the Second Amendment exactly? Some group that organizes against the US government? They'll all be arrested for treason. State militias? They are only protected now as long as they comply with the federal government, which makes little sense considering the prefatory clause of the amendment.

In other words, if the government here turns against the Jews, the Second Amendment will not protect them.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 08 2017, 3:54 pm
marina wrote:
I don't really understand the Second Amendment's militia clause, as applied nowadays.

Which militia is going to be protected by the Second Amendment exactly? Some group that organizes against the US government? They'll all be arrested for treason. State militias? They are only protected now as long as they comply with the federal government, which makes little sense considering the prefatory clause of the amendment.

In other words, if the government here turns against the Jews, the Second Amendment will not protect them.


I agree, it does seem very unclear.

So, marina, you're the attorney - what DOES it mean?
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 08 2017, 4:09 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
I agree, it does seem very unclear.

So, marina, you're the attorney - what DOES it mean?


I see it kind of like the 3rd amendment- made sense when written, not so much now.

I think it was a historical compromise to get the states on board with signing the constitution. Some states were afraid they would not have their own militia.


The Heller case does a nice job of going through the history.
https://supreme.justia.com/cas......html
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 08 2017, 4:14 pm
marina wrote:
I see it kind of like the 3rd amendment- made sense when written, not so much now.

I think it was a historical compromise to get the states on board with signing the constitution. Some states were afraid they would not have their own militia.


The Heller case does a nice job of going through the history.
https://supreme.justia.com/cas......html


Very interesting. Thank you.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 08 2017, 4:19 pm
I'm happy there is an Israeli army that can protect Jews everywhere (eg Entebbe). But I'm not convinced the benefits of owning a gun in case a nazi style anti semitic government gets into power in my country unexpectedly outweigh the risks of me or a family member injuring ourselves with said gun. Its not just learning how to use a gun...its reflexes, training etc. Just this past shabbos we had a guest who was present at a terror attack on a yishuv and he killed the gunman. But he wasn't just anyone! He was a trained soldier, who was assigned to protect the yishuv. He risked his life to kill the guy. (and was in fact very badly injured) Not anyone would do that. You can spend hours a week on a shooting range but how do you know how you will react under pressure? That's what army training will do - teach you that.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 08 2017, 8:18 pm
If Jews need guns in the US to defend themselves against a possibly anti semitic government, how about Jews who live in countries that restrict gun ownership? Are significant numbers (or any) Jews in those countries trying to change the law to allow greater access to guns?
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 08 2017, 8:47 pm
imasoftov wrote:
If Jews need guns in the US to defend themselves against a possibly anti semitic government, how about Jews who live in countries that restrict gun ownership? Are significant numbers (or any) Jews in those countries trying to change the law to allow greater access to guns?


I think this was the original premise of the op - maybe they should have.
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