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Shabbos meals - fish and meat.
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amother




Navy


Post  Mon, Nov 13 2017, 12:24 am
I often see menus posted here that do not include fish. Or there is fish, but not meat. And sometimes even a dairy meal. Ditto what I hear now and then from people IRL.

I have always felt compelled to serve proper shabbos meals that include both a fish course and a meat course. Friday night and shabbos lunch. While the thought of deviating from this sometimes sounded tempting, I always felt like I'd somehow be dishonoring shabbos to do it.

But the truth is, especially shabbos day, we are all so happy eating fish and salads and really fill up on it. Nobody wants the cholent. Nobody wants chicken either.

So I'm wondering about the whole fish and meat thing.... is it a mitzvah or a minhag? If you eat both only at one meal have your fulfilled this? What about one meat meal and one fish meal? What really is the obligation, if any?
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amother




Coral


Post  Mon, Nov 13 2017, 12:52 am
It's not written in a halacha sefer it's part of zmiros. Also as I understand it the point is matamim whatever that means to you doesn't have to be specifically meat and fish.
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DrMom









  


Post  Mon, Nov 13 2017, 12:52 am
I never heard that Jews are compelled to eat meat AND fish at every "proper" Shabbat meal until I came on imamother.

We regularly have one, or the other, or neither.

I don't see the point of regularly cooking food knowing nobody will eat it.
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amother




Jade


Post  Mon, Nov 13 2017, 1:23 am
amother wrote:
It's not written in a halacha sefer it's part of zmiros. Also as I understand it the point is matamim whatever that means to you doesn't have to be specifically meat and fish.


It says "basar v'dagim v'chol matamim" and some hold that it should be by each meal. But I dont think its strict halacha that you have to. In halacha it says to eat b'kovodige food, which usually means fish and meat.

We always have both, but after the fish and soup, most of us usually just take a tiny piece of chicken to be yotzei.
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FranticFrummie









  


Post  Mon, Nov 13 2017, 1:27 am
DH has a minhag to always have fish and meat at both meals. I could happily eat fish and salatim. He eats a ton of meat, and I end up taking a few bites of it.

If you find yourself having leftover meat or cholent, try making something in a smaller amount, or make a lot and put it into containers for the freezer, like a brisket. That way you'll have portions of meat to reheat and serve in the future, without all the waste.
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Teomima









  


Post  Mon, Nov 13 2017, 1:33 am
I'm a vegetarian. Kids and dh are not. But since I'm the one doing the cooking, and we all love vegetarian foods, more often than not we have pareve or dairy shabbat and chagim meals. For guests I'll usually make one fleishig dish, and I next to never make fish.

So not everyone does it. Best as I understand it, the mitzvah is to have a joyous meal. Minhag translated that as meaning fish and meat. But if fish and/or meat aren't joyous to you, what's the point of the minhag if it contradicts the mitzvah itself?
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tichellady









  


Post  Mon, Nov 13 2017, 1:53 am
We have food we like but try not to make I­t­ gluttonous and wasteful. We are health conscious and I’m conscious of my time/effort since I don’t want to make shabbos and then be exhausted. We have dairy or meat but I prefer fish fresh, so don’t usually make I­t­ for Shabbat.
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Raisin









  


Post  Mon, Nov 13 2017, 4:51 am
No one can eat more then 3 courses (including dessert). Friday night I always pick, fish or soup course, never both. My problem is people really like dips so I HAVE to serve those. Then the main course and dessert.

If you serve plated courses you could do more. Eg everyone gets a plate with a piece of fish, some salad and thats it. Then move on to soup, and main course. I find that people tend to fill up on challah and dips. I never eat dips so I always enjoy the main course. I often see menus posted that consist of 4 or 5 salads (often heavy starchy salads like sushi or noodle salad) some dips, 2 types of fish, followed by soup, followed by a huge main course - 2 types of meat or chicken, multiple sides. And desset! Either those people are huge or they eat shabbos food the whole week long. Or worse, they waste a ton of food.

Shabbos lunch I tend to do one course - cholent and deli, or fish and salads. Sometimes, fish and cholent but I prefer a quick lunch. Our shul always serves fish at the kiddush.

I'll never forget one week I didn't serve fish friday night. My husband was away and I was struggling to look after my kids and serve about 20 guests. One guy demanded that I serve him some fish. Rolling Eyes I guess his schooling was heavy on the honouring shabbos bit, skipped out the treating other people in a mentchlich way.
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Ruchel









  


Post  Mon, Nov 13 2017, 6:27 am
Nowadays people don't do traditionally. But yes, normally there's fish and meat for honoring and rejoicing. Same for a bris mila, btw, and for other joyful seudos.
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imasoftov









  


Post  Mon, Nov 13 2017, 8:19 am
amother wrote:
It's not written in a halacha sefer it's part of zmiros. Also as I understand it the point is matamim whatever that means to you doesn't have to be specifically meat and fish.

and where are the swans and quail?
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LittleDucky









  


Post  Mon, Nov 13 2017, 10:29 am
We do food we like. I see it wasteful of time and money to do all those courses every week. Especially since it usually isn't eaten. It comes from zemiros not even a mitzvah derabanan.
No fish plus chicken plus cholent.... gross and "acheilas gasa" in my opinion. We do a vegetable or two, a starch, and a fleishig dish. If we are serving a huge crowd, more but not 4 courses...
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Mommyg8









  


Post  Mon, Nov 13 2017, 10:33 am
I remember learning this in school - kol ha'ochel dag b'yom dag... something about being saved from gehinom. Did anyone else learn this, as well?

(My dh seems not to have learned this, so we don't eat fish by every meal).
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Ruchel









  


Post  Mon, Nov 13 2017, 10:47 am
Gross, really, the Jewish customs? Did I "chanced" upon an antisemitic website?

You don't have to eat anything you don't like. There are dozens, hundreds of fish and meat recipes. You can also make smaller quantities. Many people do sushi for fish, or salmon toast. Many do gefilte fish, or Sefardi red sauce. Meat can be the chulent, OR a dish with a meat and a carb.

In my house it is very much eaten, bh.
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mha3484









  


Post  Mon, Nov 13 2017, 10:59 am
For the night meal, I do all the traditional courses but we eat small portions of each. DH really likes to have the full sueuda. Also my kids are starting to get older and have difference preferences in terms of which protein they prefer.

Shabbos lunch I serve a large salad course with the fish and put out main course plates so everyone eats a good portion of salad. I serve small bowls of cholent after.
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SixOfWands









  


Post  Mon, Nov 13 2017, 11:03 am
Raisin wrote:
No one can eat more then 3 courses (including dessert). Friday night I always pick, fish or soup course, never both. My problem is people really like dips so I HAVE to serve those. Then the main course and dessert.

If you serve plated courses you could do more. Eg everyone gets a plate with a piece of fish, some salad and thats it. Then move on to soup, and main course. I find that people tend to fill up on challah and dips. I never eat dips so I always enjoy the main course. I often see menus posted that consist of 4 or 5 salads (often heavy starchy salads like sushi or noodle salad) some dips, 2 types of fish, followed by soup, followed by a huge main course - 2 types of meat or chicken, multiple sides. And desset! Either those people are huge or they eat shabbos food the whole week long. Or worse, they waste a ton of food.

Shabbos lunch I tend to do one course - cholent and deli, or fish and salads. Sometimes, fish and cholent but I prefer a quick lunch. Our shul always serves fish at the kiddush.

I'll never forget one week I didn't serve fish friday night. My husband was away and I was struggling to look after my kids and serve about 20 guests. One guy demanded that I serve him some fish. Rolling Eyes I guess his schooling was heavy on the honouring shabbos bit, skipped out the treating other people in a mentchlich way.


We do those massive meals when we have guests, because its expected, and because I like people to have choices. (Although we're not big on dips, and most of our salads are veggies.) We eat any chicken and salad leftovers during the week (although having made 4 substantial vegetable salads for guests this week, we wound up with about 2 cups of one salad left; that's all), and vacuum seal/freeze the meat or anything else that won't be used for another Shabbat.

That said, when its just family, we usually don't do both fish and meat.
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LittleDucky









  


Post  Mon, Nov 13 2017, 11:07 am
Ruchel wrote:
Gross, really, the Jewish customs? Did I "chanced" upon an antisemitic website?

You don't have to eat anything you don't like. There are dozens, hundreds of fish and meat recipes. You can also make smaller quantities. Many people do sushi for fish, or salmon toast. Many do gefilte fish, or Sefardi red sauce. Meat can be the chulent, OR a dish with a meat and a carb.

In my house it is very much eaten, bh.


Oh we do neat menus and try interesting recipes all the time. We don't do boring that often.
But yeah the way the meals are in some houses it is gluttonous. (Probably No thanks to Jewish magazines... )
I have no problem if people can do it within reason but we have moms on here complaining of exhaustion, financial issues, waste... so everyone should do what they want and do it within reason and without guilt.
If we would only pay attention to certain actual mitzvos from the Torah as we do "customs"--- our world would be in a much better place and maybe Moshiach would come...
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amother




Wheat


Post  Mon, Nov 13 2017, 11:09 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
I remember learning this in school - kol ha'ochel dag b'yom dag... something about being saved from gehinom. Did anyone else learn this, as well?

(My dh seems not to have learned this, so we don't eat fish by every meal).


Yeah, some idiot quoted that one to me once when I mentioned that I don't eat fish Rolling Eyes

I hate fish, so I don't eat it, and I don't make it either because it grosses me out. Love meat though. I do make Shabbos meals felishig, on yontif, I usually have 1-2 milchig meals, because it's just so much food in general.
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amother




Pewter


Post  Mon, Nov 13 2017, 11:11 am
LittleDucky wrote:
It comes from zemiros not even a mitzvah derabanan.


Okay, I'll bite.

I'm almost sure it says in the kitzur that one should have fish and meat. It's not halacha in the sense that one is violating something by not doing it though most people I know do try to have it.

Our extended families always have both Friday night and just meat in the day.
Though my dh doesn't like fish so we don't have it. (which I think is actually brought down there [or definitely somewhere else], that one doesn't need to have it if you don't like it.)
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Mommyg8









  


Post  Mon, Nov 13 2017, 11:13 am
LittleDucky wrote:
Oh we do neat menus and try interesting recipes all the time. We don't do boring that often.
But yeah the way the meals are in some houses it is gluttonous. (Probably No thanks to Jewish magazines... )
I have no problem if people can do it within reason but we have moms on here complaining of exhaustion, financial issues, waste... so everyone should do what they want and do it within reason and without guilt.
If we would only pay attention to certain actual mitzvos from the Torah as we do "customs"--- our world would be in a much better place and maybe Moshiach would come...


Honestly, the "real" customs are pretty simple - gefilte fish, clear soup, chicken - I could eat all that easily (sorry, was that TMI?), and by day - gefilte fish, a little bit of cholent - that's not really that much food. For shalosh seudos you could eat a fruit (I guess dh is not chassidish).

I'm starting to really get curious as to these massive meals that everyone seems to be making... what am I missing?
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amother




Navy


Post  Mon, Nov 13 2017, 11:32 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
Honestly, the "real" customs are pretty simple - gefilte fish, clear soup, chicken - I could eat all that easily (sorry, was that TMI?), and by day - gefilte fish, a little bit of cholent - that's not really that much food. For shalosh seudos you could eat a fruit (I guess dh is not chassidish).

I'm starting to really get curious as to these massive meals that everyone seems to be making... what am I missing?


Right. So my grandmother, who grew up in Poland incredibly poor, told me that they always had fish and chicken. But it was a tiny piece of gefilte fish and one small chicken was shared amongst her family with 6 kids. She was next to youngest so her portion was one wing. The filled up on potatoes.
Today’s standards how can I serve anyone a tiny piece of gefilte fish and tiny piece of chicken and feel it’s lekovod shabbos when we eat more and better during the week? So all the salads and dips and fancy sides. But then because you have all those fantastic extras, you start to feel like who wants meat and fish? Very hard to find the right balance. At least for me.
So that’s what I’m trying to figure out. I legitimately don’t know what’s necessary.
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