Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Interesting Discussions
What does it mean to be "secular"?
1  2  3  Next



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h

amother
Blue


 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 2:24 pm
Thinking about MY and her "confession" , I was wondering-

Where is the line in the sand that separates secular away from frum?

In the US it seems to be more clear-cut, but in countries like England and South Africa , there are lots of people who belong to orthodox shuls, go there every shabbas, consider themselves to be somewhat religious, but don't perhaps keep shabbas fully, they might drive to shul because it is less "work" than walking 5 miles. They kind of believe in G-d, haven't really learned hilchos shabbas though. Are they "secular"? Should they be banned from this site?

OTOH there are people in extremely right wing communities who practice a lot of Judaism, but fundamentally they do not believe in G-d, but practice because it is their culture. Are THEY secular? Should they be banned from this site?

I don't know the answers to these questions.

In the case of MY (which is really NOT the subject of this thread) I think the biggest issues with her were
Deception
Not identifying HERSELF as orthodox, so she was not "one of us" in her own eyes
The desire to bash certain segments of the community.

Let this be a "who is allowed here" thread though. Obviously Yael decides.

We usually say shabbas kashrus TH.

What if someone goes to the mikvah, but doesn't do bedikos? Or keeps kosher, according to their opinion, but they eat vegetarian out?

Thoughts?
Back to top

amother
Teal


 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 2:36 pm
Regarding the question of banning people for what they practice or believe - there is no reliable way of checking that over the internet... even if you were to demand a sort of written halacha-exam before admitting people to the site, determined trolls still could cheat that. The internet is anonymous. Nothing to be done about it.

Regarding the definition of "secular": I would define it as a combination of being by and large not Torah observant, lack of belief in Hashem and a generally "Western World-ish" mindset.
Back to top

sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 2:41 pm
Sheesh. I hope people who eat milchig out are allowed here.

In all seriousness, your point about *cultural* Orthodoxy in many parts of the world is a good one. South Africa, UK, Europe, Russia, South America...

I was in Kiev this summer and I don’t think there even is a Reform shul there. If you go to shul, it’s an Orthodox one. Everyone who is part of the Jewish community knows each other and participates together, whether they live walking distance and daven with a minyan three times a day or show up once a year.
Back to top

legalos




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 2:42 pm
This is a very difficult question and one I've thought about a lot too. Israel is it's own story but, for example, there are also lots of people in Israel that grew up masorti - always had shabbat and chagim dinners, went to shul even on shabbat and chagim, kept a totally kosher home, but would watch TV after the meal ended. Or drive. I think what really shocked me when I lived there was seeing women that looked totally "secular" at the mikvah.

I also think that frum is a mindset more than actual observance.
Back to top

Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 2:46 pm
sequoia wrote:
Sheesh. I hope people who eat milchig out are allowed here.

In all seriousness, your point about *cultural* Orthodoxy in many parts of the world is a good one. South Africa, UK, Europe, Russia, South America...

I was in Kiev this summer and I don’t think there even is a Reform shul there. If you go to shul, it’s an Orthodox one. Everyone who is part of the Jewish community knows each other and participates together, whether they live walking distance and daven with a minyan three times a day or show up once a year.

Same in South Africa
There is one community Shul with a chabad rabbi. Some people raven three times daily but don’t keep shabbos. Heck part of the shabbos choir brings their phones to Shul.
Back to top

SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 2:48 pm
A "secular Jew" is a person who identifies him or herself as Jewish, either culturally or ethnically, but does not have any religious-based beliefs related to Judaism.

Just like a secular Xtian might put up a Xmas tree and give presents, without mentioning or thinking about J3zus or a virgin birth, a secular Jew might attend a Pesach seder, viewing it as a cultural artifact or a family gathering, but without relating it to Hashem.

A "frum" Jew practices the Big 3 according to some accepted Orthodox interpretation, and actually believes in it.

You can be "religious" without being "frum." Eg, if you follow the dictates of Conservative Judaism, or Reform Judaism.

You can be Orthodox without being "frum." Eg, if the Orthodox shul is the one that you don't attend.

No time to consider this further, but interesting question.
Back to top

sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 2:49 pm
Christopher Hitchens had a Pesach seder every year and made his daughter participate!
Back to top

amother
Lemon


 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 2:49 pm
I'm part of a Facebook group for Orthodox women who have a certain common interest. Like here, there are varying levels of observance and even a few women who are probably more "conservadox". It's easy for the moderator to allow only women, since Orthodox is a fuzzy term, she is more flexible on that point. There isn't a yardstick of observance so much as you are generally somewhat observant and familiar with Orthodoxy. The idea is that you are able to participate in discussions about how this common interest intersects with Orthodoxy and you understand certain sensitivities such as mothers asking for suggestions for suitable books and movies and stuff like that.
Back to top

amother
Plum


 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 3:06 pm
amother wrote:
What id someone goes to the mikvah, but doesn't do bedikos. Or keeps kosher, according to their opinion, but they eat vegetarian out?

Thoughts?


Frum is like a wet bar of soap. You try to hold on to the meaning of it and it slips. So you grip harder hoping to get a grip on it ....and you grip harder....more and more effort goes into keeping the wet bar from slipping and sliding.... and this keeps the rabbis very busy...and the schools very busy...and it supplies the stadiums and various other businesses with income (what with all the asifos, takanos, minhagim, etc. etc. )...ad bee'as hamoshiach....
Nu, these are my preliminary thoughts....
Back to top

InnerMe




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 3:29 pm
Interesting question.
I was also pondering that question in relation to MY's thread.

Some of my thoughts..
[Deleted] What does Orthodox mean? For the most part we look at it as Jews who "keep" the big 3. There are many interpretations to "keeping" and many different levels. But no one will tell you that if you eat chalav stam that you are not "keeping" kosher. Because it is based on an accepted Orthodox Rabbi's approval. Orthodox people know that when it comes to the big 3 they don't just go off on their own. They follow the halachos involved. They don't rely on themselves to determine whether "Hashem would be ok with me driving."

So perhaps it's more of a mindset. One that relies on Orthodox Rabbis to guide them in these big 3 and does not make changes based on their whim, or rationale.

So let's say there's someone out there that is "culturally Jewish." They light the menorah. They fast on the high holidays. All the chagim are celebrated in full spirit. But take Kosher- they don't eat pork & obviously mixed meat and milk. Yet they wouldn't hesitate to walk into a non-kosher restaurant and only rule out the pork and the very obvious cheese burger.. that is someone who is not orthodox. They do not have the above mindset of relying on an Orthodox Rav to decide for them on these big 3. That's some of my thoughts on this Orthodox dilemma.

Also Sequioa, you mentioned "defacto secular" on the other thread. I was left scratching my head.. do you mean a person who considers themselves orthodox but really isn't?


Last edited by InnerMe on Thu, Nov 16 2017, 7:51 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top

amother
Ivory


 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 3:35 pm
amother wrote:
Thinking about MY and her "confession" , I was wondering-

Where is the line in the sand that separates secular away from frum?

In the US it seems to be more clear-cut, but in countries like England and South Africa , there are lots of people who belong to orthodox shuls, go there every shabbas, consider themselves to be somewhat religious, but don't perhaps keep shabbas fully, they might drive to shul because it is less "work" than walking 5 miles. They kind of believe in G-d, haven't really learned hilchos shabbas though. Are they "secular"? Should they be banned from this site?

OTOH there are people in extremely right wing communities who practice a lot of Judaism, but fundamentally they do not believe in G-d, but practice because it is their culture. Are THEY secular? Should they be banned from this site?

I don't know the answers to these questions.

In the case of MY (which is really NOT the subject of this thread) I think the biggest issues with her were
Deception
Not identifying HERSELF as orthodox, so she was not "one of us" in her own eyes
The desire to bash certain segments of the community.

Let this be a "who is allowed here" thread though. Obviously Yael decides.

We usually say shabbas kashrus TH.

What if someone goes to the mikvah, but doesn't do bedikos? Or keeps kosher, according to their opinion, but they eat vegetarian out?

Thoughts?


It has nothing to do with the country that you live in... and frum and secular aren't the only way to describe a Jewish person.

If you live your life, making daily choices without regard to religion, you are secular. You could be a secular Jew who happens to go to shul three times a year.

I've always thought of a "frum" person as a "pious person". In my mind that is someone whose everyday choices, and actions are made from a place of devotion to Hashem.

edited to add - given the 'onerousness' of keeping kosher, shabbat and mikvah - one might conclude that a women would not do those things unless she was reasonably devout.

(I think that conclusion is often false)
Back to top

Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 3:43 pm
That is an interesting question... Because MY, herself, seemed to have understood frum as keeping the three basic mitzvos. She mentioned many times that she keeps Shabbos and kosher, and I read some of her old threads, and she mentions going to the mikvah (of course she had to throw in a good word for how she hated it, how she hated that men were in charge, etc.).

I know this doesn't answer your question, but I think that since we can't generally know what people are thinking inside their heads, we do go somewhat by externals, and in this case it would mean keeping the three basic mitzvos.

Should this site change their criteria? Should Yael start allowing in women who go to shul on Shabbos, then drive home, as long as they identify as Orthodox? Who do not yet practice TH? Do you think a criteria should be a belief in Hashem? In Torah? Somewhat? Maybe? Even if they don't yet, or never will, follow everything completely?

I like your question. A lot.
Back to top

Simple1




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 4:05 pm
I think it had more to do with her intention to troll, rather than her level of obsevance.
Back to top

nicole81




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 4:20 pm
amother wrote:

Regarding the definition of "secular": I would define it as... ...a generally "Western World-ish" mindset.


What does this even mean?
Back to top

amother
Blue


 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 5:09 pm
Wow interesting replies ladies! I agree with almost everyone, in a kind of weird way.

I think it makes me think about the UNITY of us all as a nation. As in - we are Jews. Bnei Yisrael- descendants of the 12 tribes, (well the unlost tribes), sons of Yaakov Avinu. It's all that really matters I guess. Perhaps frum/not frum can never be defined. We are all individuals on a spectrum.

Or maybe if you don't have Hashem and His Torah as your primary guide, you're outside frumkeit? But like someone said- it's unmeasurable.

Don't know. Who knows? Don't know that either.

Keep writing, I'm enjoying the conversation.
Back to top

amother
Aubergine


 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 5:12 pm
Rabbi shmuel Dishon defines a not frum person if someone isn't shomer shabbos. And I obviously agree with him.
Back to top

amother
Linen


 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 5:18 pm
sequoia wrote:
Christopher Hitchens had a Pesach seder every year and made his daughter participate!



Wasn't he that famous atheist who died recently?
Back to top

PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 5:32 pm
sequoia wrote:
Christopher Hitchens had a Pesach seder every year and made his daughter participate!


Really? Was his mother and/or wife Jewish?

But hey, Glen Campbell had a seder too. (Hat tip to MY.)
Back to top

sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 5:33 pm
amother wrote:
Wasn't he that famous atheist who died recently?


Not too recently... Crying

He was much more than that. He was a brilliant essayist and literary critic, a hardworking journalist, a principled neocon, an old-fashioned socialist, a husband and father, and a Jew.
Back to top

sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 5:34 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
Really? Was his mother and/or wife Jewish?



Both.
Back to top
Page 1 of 3 1  2  3  Next Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Interesting Discussions

Related Topics Replies Last Post
"Affordable" clothing for an adult
by amother
0 Today at 10:26 am View last post
Where to get 44"/48" mattresses/platform beds 1 Yesterday at 8:33 am View last post
Does anybody use "the pink stuff"?
by tweety1
11 Mon, Mar 25 2024, 12:47 pm View last post
"Tipping" teachers
by amother
6 Thu, Mar 21 2024, 1:27 pm View last post
What does galgalim mean?
by amother
5 Thu, Mar 21 2024, 1:23 pm View last post