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What does it mean to be "secular"?
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 7:38 pm
sequoia wrote:
Both.


Wow. I didn't know.
FTR, Glen Campbell was connected to Messianic Judaism.
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amother
Blue


 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 7:44 pm
Here is an interesting article I just came across

http://jewishweek.timesofisrae.....tity/

Shows the importance of actually keeps mitzvos rather than "Jewish identity". Not exactly on topic. Anyway...
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 7:57 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
A "secular Jew" is a person who identifies him or herself as Jewish, either culturally or ethnically, but does not have any religious-based beliefs related to Judaism.

Just like a secular Xtian might put up a Xmas tree and give presents, without mentioning or thinking about J3zus or a virgin birth, a secular Jew might attend a Pesach seder, viewing it as a cultural artifact or a family gathering, but without relating it to Hashem.

A "frum" Jew practices the Big 3 according to some accepted Orthodox interpretation, and actually believes in it.

You can be "religious" without being "frum." Eg, if you follow the dictates of Conservative Judaism, or Reform Judaism.

You can be Orthodox without being "frum." Eg, if the Orthodox shul is the one that you don't attend.

No time to consider this further, but interesting question.


What if you wear a shpitzle and seams and your husband wears a streiml and veisa zukin and rebbishe shirt without cuffs and collar. You look down on everyone who isn't like you publicly, but in private you are a reverse Morano and don't believe in Hashem..
Where would you fit into this list
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Boca00




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 7:58 pm
I think believing in Hashem is basic.
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SpottedBanana




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 8:00 pm
amother wrote:
Frum is like a wet bar of soap. You try to hold on to the meaning of it and it slips. So you grip harder hoping to get a grip on it ....and you grip harder....more and more effort goes into keeping the wet bar from slipping and sliding.... and this keeps the rabbis very busy...and the schools very busy...and it supplies the stadiums and various other businesses with income (what with all the asifos, takanos, minhagim, etc. etc. )...ad bee'as hamoshiach....
Nu, these are my preliminary thoughts....


So well put, I wish you wouldn't be amother! I happen to not agree with you, as I define "frum" as keeping at least the aspects of Torah that have been steady since the Sanhedrin because of a belief in Hashem and His desire for Jews to keep Torah.

Or actually, I think you could also define frum by how one would be disqualified from being called frum -- I.e., out of a belief that it is okay, skipping mikvah or the minimum bedikos before being intimate, creating any sort of circuit on Shabbos, or eating something that is actually treif (and yes, sequoia, one who eats non-kosher cheese is eating actual treif, albeit mid'rabbonon).

As to those "in-betweeners" like the many people I know who do eat milchig out and go to frat parties on Shabbos, I call them "on the fringe" or "frum-ish." However, I define my acquaintances who wear jeans, unfortunately have that "Western mindset," and aren't shomer negiah as "nominally frum" because they keep Shabbos and would only eat vegan out.

It's a complicated world out there... I just can't wait for "ומלאה הארץ דעה את ה' כמים לים מכסים"...
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amother
Red


 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 8:09 pm
sequoia wrote:
Christopher Hitchens had a Pesach seder every year and made his daughter participate!


That is so weird to hear.
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amother
Ivory


 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 8:13 pm
amother wrote:
That is so weird to hear.


https://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.....age=2

What should one say about God to a 4-year-old?

Mr. Hitchens said his daughter “has to sit through a little Passover ceremony every year whether she wants to or not,” and that at the seder, he tries to explain the links between Jerusalem and Athens — the relationship between the recumbent dinner and the asking of questions to the Platonic idea of the group symposium.

“She has to know that there’s a tradition that she and I and her mother come from,” he said, “but it would never occur to me to say that she had to attend a place of worship or believe that she was created or supervised. In the meantime, she goes to a Quaker school and campaigns for Barack Obama.”
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legalos




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 8:14 pm
SpottedBanana wrote:
However, I define my acquaintances who wear jeans, unfortunately have that "Western mindset," and aren't shomer negiah as "nominally frum" because they keep Shabbos and would only eat vegan out.


Just curious, so I understand what you’re saying - what if someone keeps the big 3, only eats mamash kosher (no vegan restaurants), wears jeans under a dress, like I’m seeing all over social media, covers her hair, and doesn’t necessarily keep shomer negiah? Is this person frum to you?
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leah233




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 8:16 pm
sequoia wrote:
Both.


So how did he get the name Christopher Hitchens (particularly the first one) ?
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amother
Red


 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 8:20 pm
amother wrote:
Frum is like a wet bar of soap. You try to hold on to the meaning of it and it slips. So you grip harder hoping to get a grip on it ....and you grip harder....more and more effort goes into keeping the wet bar from slipping and sliding.... and this keeps the rabbis very busy...and the schools very busy...and it supplies the stadiums and various other businesses with income (what with all the asifos, takanos, minhagim, etc. etc. )...ad bee'as hamoshiach....
Nu, these are my preliminary thoughts....


Wait a second. It is impossible that you actually believe what you wrote. Sure there are examples of people who had religion and Chumras shoved down their throat which caused them to become less frum. But for you to suggest as a general rule, that the more people try to hold on to being frum, and the tighter they grip their frumkeit, the more slippery it gets like a bar of soap, is absurd. How utterly ridiculous for you to suggest this as a general rule.
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InnerMe




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 8:26 pm
SpottedBanana wrote:
So well put, I wish you wouldn't be amother! I happen to not agree with you, as I define "frum" as keeping at least the aspects of Torah that have been steady since the Sanhedrin because of a belief in Hashem and His desire for Jews to keep Torah.

Or actually, I think you could also define frum by how one would be disqualified from being called frum -- I.e., out of a belief that it is okay, skipping mikvah or the minimum bedikos before being intimate, creating any sort of circuit on Shabbos, or eating something that is actually treif (and yes, sequoia, one who eats non-kosher cheese is eating actual treif, albeit mid'rabbonon).

As to those "in-betweeners" like the many people I know who do eat milchig out and go to frat parties on Shabbos, I call them "on the fringe" or "frum-ish." However, I define my acquaintances who wear jeans, unfortunately have that "Western mindset," and aren't shomer negiah as "nominally frum" because they keep Shabbos and would only eat vegan out.

It's a complicated world out there... I just can't wait for "ומלאה הארץ דעה את ה' כמים לים מכסים"...


Well put! SB, I like your posts (and the spots on your banana!)
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InnerMe




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 8:32 pm
legalos wrote:
Just curious, so I understand what you’re saying - what if someone keeps the big 3, only eats mamash kosher (no vegan restaurants), wears jeans under a dress, like I’m seeing all over social media, covers her hair, and doesn’t necessarily keep shomer negiah? Is this person frum to you?


The to me that's still considered keeping the big 3. Even though some may argue that not being shomer negia as not in keeping with the big 3, I think it falls into a different category. Because for the most part people are aware that this is not ideal lhalacha, and many just struggle with it. And also because in certain orthodox circles it has become more or less accepted, and while they admit to doing this they don't claim it's right or that Hashem doesn't care, which doesn't make it any better but this doesn't make them not "orthodox." I've seen many a time here on Ima where a poster writes that she wasn't SN, but it's almost never in a gloating, I'm proud kind of way.

And re: the jeans. If someone would be wearing that pair of jeans without that skirt, if they are keeping the big 3 then to me they are definitely "orthodox"
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Boca00




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 8:34 pm
Getting back to the question- I think really this is something only Hashem can determine. Only He knows what's in our hearts.

Someone can be dressed very provocatively today... but maybe yesterday she was modeling in her bikini, so this is a huge step up for her.

Someone can be keeping everything publicly and then privately watch TV on Shabbos or hang out with escorts.

We can only see what we can see (obviously). But what we can see is only a fraction of the story.

I say, let's leave these decisions to G-d.

Now- if you want to know criteria to be allowed on this site, I think anyone who self-identifies as frum and believes in One G-d should be allowed. As long as they are respectful of all the mitzvos even if they aren't there yet.

Let's leave the rest up to him.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 8:43 pm
I don’t eat any cheese at all. Don’t like it.

He got the name because his father wasn’t Jewish, and his mother hid her identity and tried to make him into an English gentleman. It’s all very Daniel Deronda.
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InnerMe




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 8:52 pm
Boca00 wrote:
Getting back to the question- I think really this is something only Hashem can determine. Only He knows what's in our hearts.

Someone can be dressed very provocatively today... but maybe yesterday she was modeling in her bikini, so this is a huge step up for her.

Someone can be keeping everything publicly and then privately watch TV on Shabbos or hang out with escorts.

We can only see what we can see (obviously). But what we can see is only a fraction of the story.

I say, let's leave these decisions to G-d.

Now- if you want to know criteria to be allowed on this site, I think anyone who self-identifies as frum and believes in One G-d should be allowed. As long as they are respectful of all the mitzvos even if they aren't there yet.

Let's leave the rest up to him.


I totally agree with you, and of course we shouldn't pass judgment on anyone. It's not "Hey! I'm orthodox! You're not. I'm greater, better, and holier then you." Used in that sense is no good, and unorthodox;) But for criteria for this site, and many other practical situations, I think it's helpful to be able to pinpoint a distinction between the terms Orthodox Judaism & the secular variety.

And of course that's in no way judging or deciding whose better or more worthy in Hashem's eyes. I can look Jewish and talk Jewish and act Jewish, and still the guy in Oregon or Virgina or Hong Kong who is sincerely davening to hashem for the very first time, and connecting to G-d on a deep level; his efforts may be worth a lot greater in G-d's eyes then my walking the walk.
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amother
Red


 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 8:56 pm
Boca00 wrote:
Getting back to the question- I think really this is something only Hashem can determine. Only He knows what's in our hearts.

Someone can be dressed very provocatively today... but maybe yesterday she was modeling in her bikini, so this is a huge step up for her.

Someone can be keeping everything publicly and then privately watch TV on Shabbos or hang out with escorts.

We can only see what we can see (obviously). But what we can see is only a fraction of the story.

I say, let's leave these decisions to G-d.

Now- if you want to know criteria to be allowed on this site, I think anyone who self-identifies as frum and believes in One G-d should be allowed. As long as they are respectful of all the mitzvos even if they aren't there yet.

Let's leave the rest up to him.



Am I reading this correctly? You're saying only hashem Can define what a secular jew Is? Why can't mere mortals give it a try?
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amother
Ivory


 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 8:58 pm
amother wrote:
Am I reading this correctly? You're saying only hashem Can define what a secular jew Is? Why can't mere mortals give it a try?


No, only Hashem can know if a person is truly frum.
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Boca00




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 9:12 pm
Because look at the examples I gave. We can't know if someone is religious or frum or orthodox or whatever you wanna call it just based on what we see. Because our sight is so limited and people are so complex.
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Boca00




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 9:20 pm
InnerMe wrote:
I totally agree with you, and of course we shouldn't pass judgment on anyone. It's not "Hey! I'm orthodox! You're not. I'm greater, better, and holier then you." Used in that sense is no good, and unorthodox;) But for criteria for this site, and many other practical situations, I think it's helpful to be able to pinpoint a distinction between the terms Orthodox Judaism & the secular variety.

And of course that's in no way judging or deciding whose better or more worthy in Hashem's eyes. I can look Jewish and talk Jewish and act Jewish, and still the guy in Oregon or Virgina or Hong Kong who is sincerely davening to hashem for the very first time, and connecting to G-d on a deep level; his efforts may be worth a lot greater in G-d's eyes then my walking the walk.


I hear you. I guess I think of frum as "holy" vs just walking the walk. I'm going to think about this more.
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amother
Red


 

Post Wed, Nov 15 2017, 9:29 pm
Boca00 wrote:
Because look at the examples I gave. We can't know if someone is religious or frum or orthodox or whatever you wanna call it just based on what we see. Because our sight is so limited and people are so complex.


I think you're over analyzing it by.....alot. first of all the jews that we openly see driving their cars on shabbos and eating at McDonald's are obviously secular. The ones that at face value who are seemingly shomer torah umitzvos are not secular. Why should I consider that maybe my black hat neighbor is really putting on a show and when I see him coming home late at night with a sefer in his hand, that it's all a facade, and he's really coming from God knows where? I can tell you're not secular either. I think 99% of the time people aren't faking it, and even the few who are, doesn't change the definition of secular just because it's hard to identify them.
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