What does it mean to be "secular"?

Boca00

Wed, Nov 15 2017, 9:42 pm

amother wrote:

I think you're over analyzing it by.....alot. first of all the jews that we openly see driving their cars on shabbos and eating at McDonald's are obviously secular. The ones that at face value who are seemingly shomer torah umitzvos are not secular. Why should I consider that maybe my black hat neighbor is really putting on a show and when I see him coming home late at night with a sefer in his hand, that it's all a facade, and he's really coming from God knows where? I can tell you're not secular either. I think 99% of the time people aren't faking it, and even the few who are, doesn't change the definition of secular just because it's hard to identify them.

You're making some good points. And please don't confront your black hat neighbor accusing him of who-knows-what. Wink

But forget about the fakers for a minute. What about all those people who are BT but not all the way there yet? What about those that grew up without knowing much but they are doing everything they know? How can we decide if those people are secular or religious?

amother

Plum

Wed, Nov 15 2017, 10:04 pm

amother wrote:

for you to suggest as a general rule, that the more people try to hold on to being frum, and the tighter they grip their frumkeit, the more slippery it gets like a bar of soap, is absurd.

No. Not what I suggested. I suggested the MEANING of frum is hard to pin down. Not that the "frum behaviors" are slippery like a wet bar of soap. If you ask ten ppl what is the meaning of frum you may well hear ten different responses. Because the meaning of the word is a difficult-to-pin-down meaning. That frum behaviors are slippery like a wet bar of soap? No. Not what I wrote. Re-read my comment upthread.

nylon

Wed, Nov 15 2017, 11:47 pm

Wait. Someone says the dividing line between LW and secular is "thin"?

Observance wise, you have religious, which means keeping the big three. The next isn't secular. You have a bunch of traditional and non orthodox but practicing. Your Reform cousin who drives on Shabbat but is active in her synagogue and would never eat pork or shrimp? Isn't secular. Your British Jews who go to the United Synagogue but eat treif out? Traditional.

Secular means you only keep things as cultural tradition. Not because it's a religious thing. Maybe you don't go to shul at all. You have some holiday meals, a Seder. But you eat what you like, you do what you want on Shabbat.

InnerMe

Thu, Nov 16 2017, 12:00 am

nylon wrote:

Please do not misunderstand me. I said sometimes it "might" seem thin. Especially on an online forum, where we don't necessarily know exactly what a poster is keeping and what not, but the attitudes (political & hashkafic) may be similar to the secular veiw point.

I went on to say that there's a world of a difference. And I will add that it is as vast as the ocean & runs mighty deep. Of course there is. I did not mean to imply the next is secular. We were discussing MY and some were saying that really what is the big difference? And another poster said she's "defacto secular." What I was trying to bring out is that just because someone has a very liberal outlook, and perhaps bashes chareidi life style because they feel like it misrepresents them, or they do in fact hate them for whatever reason, that MAY look like.. hey she may be secular.

Also I want to point out that I am not differentiating between secular, and any other practicing Judaism aside for Orthodox Judaism. For the purposes of this thread I was referring to reform, conservative and secular as part of the same the same box.

And my whole point was that if someone keeps the big 3, then it doesn't matter if they are extremely liberal, or if they were pants, of if they don't daven 3 times a day, or even once a day. They are ORTHODOX according to what I understand Orthodox to mean.

Again, my point was not to put down Modern Orthodoxy, but to show how they may sometimes look externally, key word externally, like a thin line divides them, but in essence their Judaism is worlds away from the secular person's.

If my post came across offensive, I will for sure go back and change it. The last think I want to do is put down MO. They are a beautiful part of Orthodoxy, and we can learn a lot from them in certain areas. I definitely do, here on Ima, where I've come across good hearted spiritual MO, and yes also MO all the waaay to the left Imas.

Last edited by InnerMe on Thu, Nov 16 2017, 12:08 am; edited 1 time in total

SpottedBanana

Thu, Nov 16 2017, 12:02 am

legalos wrote:

Just curious, so I understand what you’re saying - what if someone keeps the big 3, only eats mamash kosher (no vegan restaurants), wears jeans under a dress, like I’m seeing all over social media, covers her hair, and doesn’t necessarily keep shomer negiah? Is this person frum to you?

They are frum, they just don't keep one of the mitzvos because of whatever reason -- ignorance, temptation, etc. Same for the neighborhood gossip, the married woman publicly flirting with other guys, the woman chopping salad on Shabbos into teeny tiny pieces. All of these are major issurim, but someone is still frum in my book if they keep the big 3 basically correctly, and "frum-ish" if they eat vegetarian out but never use electricity on Shabbos. I guess I did agree with that amother after all -- it is like a bar of soap if you try to define who's in, but it's easier when you define who's out.

Teomima

Thu, Nov 16 2017, 1:19 am

SpottedBanana wrote:

I think this is very black-and-white thinking. Having been raised MO, it's not like I was taught "tsniyut is wearing a long skirt, so that's really what you should do, so if you choose to wear jeans you're not behaving like you should." Instead I was taught, and believe, that tsniyut is being aware of how you dress, presenting yourself in a respectable manner, both in appearance and behavior. Likewise the emphasis put on TH was more about how to focus on the emotional and intellectual connection with my dh while niddah, how to prepare and immerse properly, and how reinvigorate our marriage afterwards, rather than getting caught in the nitty gritty of bringing my underwear to a rav or stressing myself out over every bedika.

So no, I don't think the way I keep mitzvot is the weak way, giving in to temptation or just being lazy or ignorant (in fact, some could argue that the ignorant ones are those that blindly follow whatever their rav tells them, rather than educating themselves as to the reasons and sources behind various mitzvot. After all, ask five different rabbanim and you'll get five different answers). I do as I was educated while being raised in a MO environment. Actually, I do even more than my mother in some regards. I may not do nearly as much as some of you, but imo that doesn't make me any less of a Jew and it CERTAINLY doesn't make me secular.

etky

Thu, Nov 16 2017, 3:14 am

Teomima wrote:

No, of course it doesn't make you any less of a Jew and it doesn't mean that religion plays any less of a part in your life than anyone else on this board.
It just means that your hashkafa and mode of practice of Judaism in not ultra orthodox.

amother

Teal

Thu, Nov 16 2017, 4:09 am

nicole81 wrote:

What does this even mean?

What I meant with "Western World-ish mindset" is something is opposed by the more right-wing parts of DL in Israel. Some Rabbanim and people in our community hold that inside Israel there is a cultural war going on between Jewish values and Western values and that the two can't be reconciled. A "Western" mindset in their opinion would be one that puts democracy and political correctness above Torah (like, accepts it that the majority can vote to have public transport on Shabbat, that the State recognizes same-z@x marriages, that the majority votes to give parts of EY to the Arabs). A "non-Western", Jewish mindset would fight these issues because they go against Torah and the Jewish character of the state.

The "Western" mindset is held by large parts of the secular public in Israel and therefore identified with "secular".

I'm not sure if American readers can make sense of my attempt to explain it.

And it's more complicated. I'm Torah observant and keep the big 3, tzanua dress and a lot more. But regarding womens' rights and equality for an example, I'm "guilty" of a secular mindset. Does that make my Torah observance useless and mark me as secular?

Raisin

Thu, Nov 16 2017, 4:09 am

kjb wrote:

I think if a woman truly keeps TH - which is a private business - you can absolutely say she is frum. Because if she wasn't, why would she?

I took a woman to mikvah once on friday night who drove home afterwards. Lots of sefardi families keep mikvah, basic kosher, and celebrate shabbos and yom tov (but drive and use electronics). In Israel they are caller Masorti - traditonal. (not the same as the masorti movement led by Louis Jacobs which is a type of conservative movement)

I live in a small community with a few hundred families...there are probably as many ways of being Jewish as there are families!

zaq

Thu, Nov 16 2017, 8:22 am

etky wrote:

But we weren’t saying that one had to be ULTRA Orthodox to join ima( though it helps.) And Teomima never claimed to be ultra Orthodox , nor were we debating the definition of ultra Orthodox, were we? We were debating the definition of Orthodox, or frum. And someone’s appallingly condescending assertion that there “might appear” (weasel words par excellence) to be a very thin line between left wing MO and secular.

This assertion makes sense only to the ultra Orthodox. The way all Hispanics or Asians look alike to Caucasians, all non-charedim look frei to charedim. A LWMO is nothing like secular. LWMO still looks like a religious fanatic to a secular person.

mommy3b2c

Thu, Nov 16 2017, 9:29 am

zaq wrote:

Sorry zaq. But I am not chareidi, and I’m pretty sure my chassidish/yeshivish neighbors never thought I was frei. And it is it true that some LWMO do look not frum if you’re just basing it on appearance. If you don’t cover your hair and you’re wearing a bikini at the beach, there is no way for me to know that you keep shabbos, taharas hamishpacha, kosher and all the rest. But I’m always glad to hear that you do! It makes me feel a special connection.

InnerMe

Thu, Nov 16 2017, 9:49 am

zaq wrote:

I feel like you're putting words into my mouth. I thoroughly explained myself about that usage, but I will go back and edit my original post since it does seem to be hurtful.
And I agree with your entire post (minus the derision)

Optimystic

Thu, Nov 16 2017, 10:05 am

SixOfWands wrote:

A "secular Jew" is a person who identifies him or herself as Jewish, either culturally or ethnically, but does not have any religious-based beliefs related to Judaism.

Just like a secular Xtian might put up a Xmas tree and give presents, without mentioning or thinking about J3zus or a virgin birth, a secular Jew might attend a Pesach seder, viewing it as a cultural artifact or a family gathering, but without relating it to Hashem.

A "frum" Jew practices the Big 3 according to some accepted Orthodox interpretation, and actually believes in it.

You can be "religious" without being "frum." Eg, if you follow the dictates of Conservative Judaism, or Reform Judaism.

You can be Orthodox without being "frum." Eg, if the Orthodox shul is the one that you don't attend.

No time to consider this further, but interesting question.

Exactly.

I would add that secular people can also act morally within the secular world, sort of like someone who can remember the right answers to math problems without believing in math.