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What can be done to prevent people from growing up violent?
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 8:28 am
So on today's news, we read of the death of the evil Charles Manson, who was in prison for life after, as a cult leader, he influenced the brutal murders of a pregnant actress and several other wealthy people.

He was born in 1934 to a 16 year old harlot and didn't know his father. His mother initially didn't even give him a name. He was a hard core criminal by age 13. He had already spent a decade in jail when he took part in the murders.

So, after reading his life story, and the recent news of senseless mass shootings by other people who took out their anger on society, is there anything society can do to prevent people from growing up violent?
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octopus




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 8:48 am
Normal family life is so important. Society needs to appreciate the standard family unit.
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Reality




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 8:49 am
Stop glorifying violence in movies, music and video games.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 8:59 am
octopus wrote:
Normal family life is so important. Society needs to appreciate the standard family unit.


I agree and we have allowed families to become obsolete but I was just reading the bios on the Manson 'family', in other words, his cult followers and while one said that she grew up in an abusive home, others were fleeing from a very materialistic lifestyle or were on LSD. Something drew them to Manson, who they believed was Yoshke, and they felt that they were slaying the dragon of materialism that was keeping the poor in poverty.

But what would make someone morally bankrupt enough to get involved with a violent man like Manson?
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 9:00 am
Reality wrote:
Stop glorifying violence in movies, music and video games.


True, even supposedly innocent cartoons have the super-hero fighting the bad guys.
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sara400




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 9:19 am
Real connection, connection, connection. I can't emphasize it enough.

People that experience abandonment early in their lives will become sociopaths. Most mass murderers, shooters, cult leaders have major family deficits and/or significant trauma. Every human being wants to be 'something'. For those individuals chaos becomes their 'badge of honor', if that makes any sense...
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 9:21 am
sara400 wrote:
Real connection, connection, connection. I can't emphasize it enough.

People that experience abandonment early in their lives will become sociopaths. Most mass murderers, shooters, cult leaders have major family deficits and/or significant trauma. Every human being wants to be 'something'. For those individuals chaos becomes their 'badge of honor', if that makes any sense...


Yes but that same thirst for blood could be channeled in a positive way such as joining the military and fighting for the country and going up in rank to become a something.
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crust




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 9:27 am
southernbubby wrote:
Yes but that same thirst for blood could be channeled in a positive way such as joining the military and fighting for the country and going up in rank to become a something.


But that requires too much discipline and commitment which these people dont have.
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sara400




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 9:36 am
southernbubby wrote:
Yes but that same thirst for blood could be channeled in a positive way such as joining the military and fighting for the country and going up in rank to become a something.


True, we as yidden have healthy ways of releasing those urges. One can be a mohel, Shochet, or even surgeon.

Secular people have a million medical opportunities plus the ones you mentioned...

Reality is that an unsuccessful, unwanted, emotionally abandoned kid has to "want" to triumph over challenge and without the Torah or good mentors most of them grow up to be just - cold blooded animals... it's a society problem. Always was and is getting worse....
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hotzenplotz




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 10:02 am
southernbubby wrote:
So on today's news, we read of the death of the evil Charles Manson, who was in prison for life after, as a cult leader, he influenced the brutal murders of a pregnant actress and several other wealthy people.

He was born in 1934 to a 16 year old harlot and didn't know his father. His mother initially didn't even give him a name. He was a hard core criminal by age 13. He had already spent a decade in jail when he took part in the murders.

So, after reading his life story, and the recent news of senseless mass shootings by other people who took out their anger on society, is there anything society can do to prevent people from growing up violent?

I know of a young woman who was violent, picking up knives when things didnt go her way.
A kind rebetzin, twice her age (no relation) connected with her, holding her hand through rough times. Today the young woman is stable, and is a certified volunteer in a family crisis center. QUIET HEROES ARE ALL AROUND US. LOOK FOR THEM.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 10:09 am
Its simplistic to think that all violent people come from violent of dysfunctional homes.

Leslie Van Houten was part of the Manson "family." She was serving a life sentence for having stabbed Leno and Rosemary LaBianca at least 16 times. Van Houten was second child in a middle-class family, described as outgoing and athletic in her youth and in high school she became homecoming princess. She got into drugs, then met Manson.

There is no reason to believe that Ted Bundy was ever abused. In elementary school, he was described as an intelligent, happy, and popular child with many friends and a good academic record.

There just are not easy answers.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 11:18 am
SixOfWands wrote:
Its simplistic to think that all violent people come from violent of dysfunctional homes.

Leslie Van Houten was part of the Manson "family." She was serving a life sentence for having stabbed Leno and Rosemary LaBianca at least 16 times. Van Houten was second child in a middle-class family, described as outgoing and athletic in her youth and in high school she became homecoming princess. She got into drugs, then met Manson.

There is no reason to believe that Ted Bundy was ever abused. In elementary school, he was described as an intelligent, happy, and popular child with many friends and a good academic record.

There just are not easy answers.


Actually from what I have read, Ted Bundy had a pretty bizarre childhood, but I do agree with you that there are no easy answers that will apply to all violent criminals.
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tigerwife




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 11:24 am
Reality wrote:
Stop glorifying violence in movies, music and video games.


I'm not super familiar with the title story but I have to agree with this. It's possible to dull and desensitize a natural aversion to violence and gore. I was just reading the plot lines of a couple of super popular, sell-out movies and I am so disturbed that this is what millions of people choose to relax with in their spare time.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 11:28 am
southernbubby wrote:
Yes but that same thirst for blood could be channeled in a positive way such as joining the military and fighting for the country and going up in rank to become a something.


You don't want sociopaths in the army. Just think of the horrible damage they could do. Killing innocent civilians and so on, which creates bad PR, which is often half the battle nowadays.

According to freakonomics violant crime dropped when abortion became legal. Less unwanted babies were being born. Unwanted babies are the most likely to grow up in unstable family units without enough affection.

I believe I read once a tendency towards being a sociopath can be eliminated with enough love.

edited to add link https://www.theguardian.com/co.....opath


Last edited by Raisin on Mon, Nov 20 2017, 11:38 am; edited 2 times in total
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 11:32 am
SixOfWands wrote:
Its simplistic to think that all violent people come from violent of dysfunctional homes.

Leslie Van Houten was part of the Manson "family." She was serving a life sentence for having stabbed Leno and Rosemary LaBianca at least 16 times. Van Houten was second child in a middle-class family, described as outgoing and athletic in her youth and in high school she became homecoming princess. She got into drugs, then met Manson.

There is no reason to believe that Ted Bundy was ever abused. In elementary school, he was described as an intelligent, happy, and popular child with many friends and a good academic record.

There just are not easy answers.



When I was growing up, drugs were all over my neighborhood but because my parents were so proactive and involved, I never so much as smoked a cigarette, much less try the drugs that were readily and easily available. They didn't wait for trouble to start; they headed it off at the pass. Do today's frum parents even mention drugs to their children? Could Leslie Van Houten have avoided spending most of her life in jail (I think she may have finally made parole) if her parents would have invested time in teaching her how to avoid drugs? Is it enough to have a stable home or do we as parents and grandparents need to proactively rather than re-actively need to educate our children about avoiding drugs? Is anyone reading this who would be afraid of mentioning drugs to their children to teach them how to avoid it?
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 11:35 am
Raisin wrote:
You don't want sociopaths in the army. Just think of the horrible damage they could do. Killing innocent civilians and so on, which creates bad PR, which is often half the battle nowadays.

According to freakonomics violant crime dropped when abortion became illegal. Less unwanted babies were being born. Unwanted babies are the most likely to grow up in unstable family units without enough affection.

I believe I read once a tendency towards being a sociopath can be eliminated with enough love.

edited to add link https://www.theguardian.com/co.....opath


Did you mean when abortion became legal?
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 11:35 am
Raisin wrote:
You don't want sociopaths in the army. Just think of the horrible damage they could do. Killing innocent civilians and so on, which creates bad PR, which is often half the battle nowadays.

According to freakonomics violant crime dropped when abortion became illegal. Less unwanted babies were being born. Unwanted babies are the most likely to grow up in unstable family units without enough affection.

I believe I read once a tendency towards being a sociopath can be eliminated with enough love.


Violent crime dropped in the 1960's ? I would have to check that out, but I don't think so.

As for them joining the military - yes, the military does want them. I just read a story (I can't remember where I read this?) where there was this kid who was extremely violent, etc. and then the Israeli army gave him a choice of either being in prison for life, or joining some kind of special espionage unit. He joined the unit knowing that his chances of coming out alive were probably zero, and he did die young, but he also managed to use his psycopathic tendencies for the good of his people...
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 11:37 am
Raisin wrote:
You don't want sociopaths in the army. Just think of the horrible damage they could do. Killing innocent civilians and so on, which creates bad PR, which is often half the battle nowadays.

According to freakonomics violant crime dropped when abortion became illegal. Less unwanted babies were being born. Unwanted babies are the most likely to grow up in unstable family units without enough affection.

I believe I read once a tendency towards being a sociopath can be eliminated with enough love.

edited to add link https://www.theguardian.com/co.....opath


You may want to edit this because this states that crime dropped when abortion became illegal rather than when it became legal. In my state, African Americans are 14% of the population but 50% of the abortions done here are on black women, many of whom are on drugs and are not married. There are black pro-life groups that do manage to salvage some of these babies but in many cases, these children would not grow up in stable families unless a stable family wanted to adopt them.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 11:38 am
SixOfWands wrote:
Did you mean when abortion became legal?


Of course! I edited.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 11:43 am
here's a link to the freakonmics discussion. Some people have been trying to disprove this theory.

http://freakonomics.com/2005/0.....ieve/


Last edited by Raisin on Mon, Nov 20 2017, 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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