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S/O of rich: Mo' money, mo' problems?
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crust




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 12:48 am
amother wrote:
I dont know everyone's story, but I will add mine briefly. I grew up in a wealthy home. my father was working for a business that was making a lot of money when I was growing up. it was a difficult industry, and profits were a lot about reading the market properly, and making sure you never lost a customer.

he did however bring home a lot of money. going to israel for succos was a "must". florida for a week at some point was a given, unless we were going somewhere nicer. the fanciest bungalow colonies & sleepaway camps for the wife and kids were obvious. we had a large house with multiple cars, always late model.

unfortunately this came at a price. he worked very long hours. we lived in spring valley, and he worked in the city. he often did not come home until after 9 at night, this was very normal. he also left to catch the bus early in the morning. when I was a child, this meant I did not see him sometimes during the week at all. shabbos was not even all that better, as he usually fell fast asleep by the main course. us children, and there were a bunch, fought to say our "parsha sheets" during the fish course so we could catch him awake, as once mom went in to serve the soup all bets were off. shabbos day was little better, and his nap was sacred. I was never bothered by this as a child. it was my "normal". I could go on but you get the idea.

in addition I recall my parents not really talking alot, because my father was very high-strung. he was always anxious, and therefore always on edge. talking to him always seemed, idk, just not the most pleasant activity. we did enjoy the good life I guess, and so I guess it made up for it for my mother? the few times I ever heard my parents talking, and I mean really talking not just pleasantries, the conversations always seemed tense and hurried. also, the few times I ever heard him talk about business he always complained how his industry was saturated with competition, and the business was so cutthroat, and everyone did not realize how low the profit margins were, and he had to work so hard to make the money he was making, and how if he stopped it would all fall apart and we would be left with nothing.

then one day when I was in around 6th or 7th grade, tragedy struck. one of the partners in my fathers business had a heart attack. (everyone agreed it was stress, but who really knows). unfortunately, a lot of the business (remember this was "way back when") was not on paper, but in this partner's head. he jealously guarded many of the businesses secrets, including the locations of some of the companies money that was "his" and the phone numbers of "his" clients, "his" secret suppliers, etc. suffice it to say the company was thrown into chaos, and soon after collapsed. my father became an old man in the short span of a few years as he desperately tried to keep up what our family was used too.

after that, he told us that we would not be able to go away that year for succos. he was so broken about it. his attitude affected us kids, and we were all nervous about "what would be" I vividly remember. but guess what! the older boys helped build a succah, much to their delight, and "daddy" took a day off (from doing nothing but running around to try and find what to do) to help them, much to their delight!I still remember that succos, and how we were all surprised at how normal it was. I think we were all expecting some kind of disaster.

after that, following the advice of a rav, my father took a job that was low pay and demeaning, so he could pay, with difficulty, the mortgage and (now discounted) tuitions. this job had less hours. my father started being home in the evenings. he started being present with our family. he would go out for a shiur every night at 8 pm for an hour, and then again for an hour before shacharis. as far as I can recall, my relationship with my father began in 9th grade. before that I had virtually nothing to do with him. all of the sudden he was part of my life, and I loved it. and my family thrived. we had no more trips. no more bungalow. no more nice cars. no more fanciest clothes in the class. but we did get a father. (I am not saying everyone has to make that trade. I guess some people get to have it all, idk. does anybody really get to have it all? what do we know. even if yes, I am not jealous of them). and I loved it.

eventually my father got older, we all got married, and he gave up. he sold the house, and used the money to buy a small 2-bedroom apartment in florida, in a frum community. he and my mother live there full time. I have NEVER in my life seen my mother so happy. they spend time together, and they both have things they do. my father goes to several shiurim everyday, and my mother has tons of friends and tehillim groups, etc. sometimes, if tickets are really cheap, they hop on a plane to come visit. they live off the few good investments my father had made, that he did not have to sell when his kids got married, which provide them with enough so they can be retired, but not more.

anyways, I lived on both sides of the rich/poor coin. and I can tell you, I definitely preferred poor. I guess that does not prove anything, but I thought it was relevant.


Very informative post.

Re the bolded;
Not to minimize your experience c"v but I wouldn't call that 'having lived on both sides of the coin'.
I'd say that you 'lived with a wealthy father and then you went through the pain of changing reality to a father that only covered expenses and childrens weddings'.

This is not poor!!

Someone that can marry off his kids without debt and still have some investments to live off now is not even remotely related to the word poor.


Last edited by crust on Tue, Nov 21 2017, 12:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Sapphire


 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 12:48 am
Boca00 wrote:
I have a question- Everyone who says "mo' money, mo' problems'', do you enter the lottery? If someone offered you a lot of money (inheritance, huge raise) would you take it??


Raise, yes, lottery, no.

I wouldn't mind making another 50k a yr and being a bit more comfortable, but when dh buys a powerball ticket, I honestly pray we don't win. He obviously does not agree with me but I think falling into so much money so quickly would be disastrous, on so many levels...
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chaiz




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 1:03 am
Fox wrote:
It's not a contest. If you feel that some of the responsibilities that come with wealth wouldn't be "problems" for you, then great. They are problems for many people.

Are there worse problems? Well, of course!

But this is like the old dog food advertisement: "My dog's bigger than your dog. My dog's bigger than yours. My dog's bigger 'cause he eats Purina. My dog's bigger than yours."

Someone can come along and say, "Oh, yeah? You think illness, lack of heat, a bad marriage, or infertility is a problem? What about a physical disability that prevents people from considering you for a shidduch in the first place?" or "At least you're married! I have all those problems and have never found my zivug! I'm facing them alone!"

When you start creating a hierarchy of problems, it's a never-ending cycle. Yes, money clearly makes some things easier. Other things, not necessarily. Telling someone who is busy throwing up because she has the flu or is newly pregnant . . . and is expecting 50 people in her home within a few hours that her "problems" don't meet your standard? Well, that's equally silly.


I don't know. This reminds me of the discussion of the women's march this past January and why people felt the women shouldn't have marched and why their problems weren't real problems.
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chaiz




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 1:05 am
Fox wrote:
I can't speak for Squishy, but I think her point is not that cleaning ladies are a problem, but that wealth gives you different problems. Whether those problems are better or worse depends on the individual.

Right now I don't have a cleaning lady, but I did for many years. And if she didn't show up for whatever reason, hey, life went on. The floor didn't get mopped or the silver didn't get polished. If she was lousy at doing windows or forgot to wipe down the ceiling fans, we managed to survive!

But if your home is constantly being used for parlor meetings, bridal showers, and teas? You can't let it go as easily. You have people traipsing through for all kinds of reasons, and your home is expected to look well-maintained. Having the cleaning lady call in sick can be a major problem if there's an event scheduled that night and you have to take your kids to appointments most of the day.

I know a couple of well-to-do women who've become completely burned out. The time they spent on the phone coordinating use of their homes; dealing with volunteers; caterers; cleaning crews; and various guests added up to a 40+ hour-per-week job. But instead of a paycheck, they got complaints if they weren't able to accommodate everyone's demands and criticism behind their backs.

Nor is there much sympathy for someone who cuts back on social or communal obligations for personal reasons. Each organization thinks you owe them your time and attention. How could you be so selfish as to refuse your home for the annual Pesach Egg Roll or whatever scheme they've cooked up?

Need your husband's presence at home to help a struggling child? Tough luck, cookie! He's got board meetings three nights this week.

While I doubt that anyone prefers actual poverty to the demands of wealth, it's not realistic to think that you can be wealthy within the Jewish community without also shouldering significant responsibilities. Most of us like the fantasy of upping our lifestyle a bit without having to do any heavy communal lifting.


Then maybe the issue is that there are expectations in the frum community that are just not right. I know of some rich people in my community who are very generous and give of their time, money, and house. Whenever they do I think of how generous they are. If they cut back on it, I would think it is their right to do so. They don't owe anybody anything. Their tzedakah obligation is between them and Hashem,really.
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amother
Slateblue


 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 1:39 am
crust wrote:
Very informative post.

Re the bolded;
Not to minimize your experience c"v but I wouldn't call that 'having lived on both sides of the coin'.
I'd say that you 'lived with a wealthy father and then you went through the pain of changing reality to a father that only covered expenses and childrens weddings'.

This is not poor!!

Someone that can marry off his kids without debt and still have some investments to live off now is not even remotely related to the word poor.


I guess I was not clear, my father did not have enough to marry his kids off without debt. in fact, my father could not afford tuition or weddings for his children, and had to borrow a great deal and go deeply into debt to marry us off, I still remember when I was engaged, hearing late night calls from him to some relative or uncle of ours trying not to sound like he was begging, but basically begging for a few thousand dollars from this one, and a few thousand from that one, so between all the loans he could in fact make our simchas. I fell asleep crying more than once knowing the stress our simchos were causing him, of course my mother always reassured us it was none of our business to worry about that sort of thing, and as a child who remembers and feels this for too long? you get married, and forget about your parents desperation.

but fyi, after my father sold our large childhood home, and bought a tiny florida apt, us kids wanted to know, what happened to the money from the house? I still remember my father saying gently, how do you think I paid off all those wedding debts?

do I qualify now? Very Happy

EDIT: re the investments, I actually once had the temerity to ask my father about it, I was just so curious how he had them when I remember the bad years so vividly. my father told me they were his "bad" investments, that were so awful that he could not bear to sell them because of the massive losses they would have incurred, and which had almost no value anyways. apparently he had quite a few of those, some of which many years later bore some fruit, which ironically (hashgacha pratis I guess?) are now funding his retirement.
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amother
Rose


 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 2:08 am
amother wrote:
I guess I was not clear, my father did not have enough to marry his kids off without debt. in fact, my father could not afford tuition or weddings for his children, and had to borrow a great deal and go deeply into debt to marry us off, I still remember when I was engaged, hearing late night calls from him to some relative or uncle of ours trying not to sound like he was begging, but basically begging for a few thousand dollars from this one, and a few thousand from that one, so between all the loans he could in fact make our simchas. I fell asleep crying more than once knowing the stress our simchos were causing him, of course my mother always reassured us it was none of our business to worry about that sort of thing, and as a child who remembers and feels this for too long? you get married, and forget about your parents desperation.

but fyi, after my father sold our large childhood home, and bought a tiny florida apt, us kids wanted to know, what happened to the money from the house? I still remember my father saying gently, how do you think I paid off all those wedding debts?

do I qualify now? Very Happy

EDIT: re the investments, I actually once had the temerity to ask my father about it, I was just so curious how he had them when I remember the bad years so vividly. my father told me they were his "bad" investments, that were so awful that he could not bear to sell them because of the massive losses they would have incurred, and which had almost no value anyways. apparently he had quite a few of those, some of which many years later bore some fruit, which ironically (hashgacha pratis I guess?) are now funding his retirement.


I don't understand how you are not traumatized by this. I remember my father not having money my entire childhood. He always used to borrow to pay back an older loan. I became traumatized from it. I never deared ask anything from my parents. I remember needing a specific tehilim in high school and I would always borrow from another kid and return it. until I got the guts to ask my parents for money to buy it.
I promised myself that never in my life am I gonna borrow money.
After I got married my husband wanted to rent a car for a one time trip. We couldn't afford it. His brother offered to pay it, and we will pay it back in installments. Woa, did I explode at him! He didn't know what hit him!
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amother
Slateblue


 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 2:45 am
amother wrote:
I don't understand how you are not traumatized by this. I remember my father not having money my entire childhood. He always used to borrow to pay back an older loan. I became traumatized from it. I never deared ask anything from my parents. I remember needing a specific tehilim in high school and I would always borrow from another kid and return it. until I got the guts to ask my parents for money to buy it.
I promised myself that never in my life am I gonna borrow money.
After I got married my husband wanted to rent a car for a one time trip. We couldn't afford it. His brother offered to pay it, and we will pay it back in installments. Woa, did I explode at him! He didn't know what hit him!


everyone is different I guess. in fact I had one brother who was traumatized by it. he married a very rich girl so he would not have to suffer like we did and never looked back. I was always more easygoing and placid by nature. looking back, I also saw my father becoming a part of my life as a net positive, despite the other things that happened around it.

I think it's just human nature. different things hit different people differently, and there probably isn't always a good explanation for that.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 6:08 am
amother wrote:
I do know that as an orphan ( father passed away, my mother should live and be well) with wealthy relatives I was told not to make my wedding to simple since it would reflect badly on my relatives and I didn't want to do that to them.

Were you expected to spend your own money (and if so, were you able to without feeling the pinch and just would have preferred to make a simpler wedding) or did the relatives offer to pay?
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 6:26 am
Zehava wrote:
Propaganda?
Are we trying to convince people to become rich?

If there is a Jewish parallel to the TV evangelists who preach about wealth I want to see it. Well I hope there isn't. But if there is ...
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amother
Ecru


 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 7:18 am
imasoftov- I spent my own money and then my mother gave me a check afterwards because she wanted to, I told her not to feel pressured. I used money from my inheritance from my grandfather which was b"H a lot so I still had plenty left over. My wedding was still not as fancy as others because I didn't want that but it was balabatish, so I used a cheaper hall and fake flowers but it was still in a wedding hall... I admit that I had warm food at the shmorg because that was important to me can't plead completely innocent Wink - people were travelling to come and I didn't want to be serving hungry guests just some cookies. In terms of assistance- my aunt didn't give money but she did help out in terms of her time... Hope that answered your question.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 7:56 am
amother wrote:
I assume he gave through a private foundation.


Well then, there is your deduction.

Even if he couldn't use the deduction, it is difficult to move large amounts of money around with no one knowing.

Other than cash in a gym bag dropped off, someone somewhere is aware of this donation. Whether that someone is within that org or a different one, money like that isn't moved anonymously.
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allthingsblue




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 8:03 am
amother wrote:
you get married, and forget about your parents desperation.
.


No way. I will never forget. It constantly haunts me and I am constantly trying to figure out ways to help my single siblings without embarrassing anyone. I get so sad when I think about it.
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amother
Azure


 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 8:14 am
pause wrote:
. The gemara writes about a couple who jumped into a hot oven to avoid being seen whilst giving charity.


I didn't think it was a literal hot oven. It was probably a situation that can be compared to going into a hot oven . Maybe they jumped into a sauna. Or maybe they ran into the woods, risking wild animals.
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Culturedpearls




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 8:27 am
Money is a nisayon. Not everyone can handle it but it’s a huge nisayon not to have it.
Money can be used wisely . It can buy good healthcare, it can & does relieve stress, preserve Shalom bayis & it definitely can buy yiras shomayim for your kids (tuitors, therapies & great yeshivos & sems)
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pause




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 8:27 am
amother wrote:
I didn't think it was a literal hot oven. It was probably a situation that can be compared to going into a hot oven . Maybe they jumped into a sauna. Or maybe they ran into the woods, risking wild animals.

Way to go, amother, on figuring out exactly which part of my post I was emphasizing on. LOL
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 8:29 am
amother wrote:
I didn't think it was a literal hot oven. It was probably a situation that can be compared to going into a hot oven . Maybe they jumped into a sauna. Or maybe they ran into the woods, risking wild animals.

Yes, it was a literal hot oven. Hashem made a neis and they didn't get burned, only the bottom of the husbands feet.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 8:56 am
Fox wrote:
It's not a contest. If you feel that some of the responsibilities that come with wealth wouldn't be "problems" for you, then great. They are problems for many people.

Are there worse problems? Well, of course!

But this is like the old dog food advertisement: "My dog's bigger than your dog. My dog's bigger than yours. My dog's bigger 'cause he eats Purina. My dog's bigger than yours."

Someone can come along and say, "Oh, yeah? You think illness, lack of heat, a bad marriage, or infertility is a problem? What about a physical disability that prevents people from considering you for a shidduch in the first place?" or "At least you're married! I have all those problems and have never found my zivug! I'm facing them alone!"

When you start creating a hierarchy of problems, it's a never-ending cycle. Yes, money clearly makes some things easier. Other things, not necessarily. Telling someone who is busy throwing up because she has the flu or is newly pregnant . . . and is expecting 50 people in her home within a few hours that her "problems" don't meet your standard? Well, that's equally silly.


The constant comparing yourself to others is a sad part of the frum world.

My daughter came home from school with a story about a girl who was an honors student, pretty, and popular; the other girls envied her.
But no one knew behind the scenes the issues she had at home. This was supposed to make the girls feel better about themselves!

I hear this all the time including on this thread: I am rich but you wouldn't want my life because of health issues. I heard you are going to _____; I never get to go on vacation. What does one thing have to do with the other?

I tried to explain to my daughter the story and the attitude were wrong. That another was an honors student, pretty, and popular had nothing to do with any other students. That she had problems is not a way to make others feel better about themselves. It is just plain wrong to teach girls this. Demean others, so you can feel better about your lot is not the message I want my children getting.

This constant comparisons demeans both parties. That you want to make yourselves feel better because someone has issues is not a way to actually make you feel better about yourself. How does that help you?

Not everyone wants what others have. A grand house doesn't speak to me except as a good investment and as an item to make my family happy. There are dozens of productive things I would rather do than supervise and maintain a home. I wish everyone well and am glad that I can see the good and I don't look for the bad as a way to measure myself.

I don't know if it is social media or the schools that are promoting this hyper-comparision envy jealous way of life. It is the rat race in overdrive.
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crust




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 9:04 am
Squishy wrote:
The constant comparing yourself to others is a sad part of the frum world.

My daughter came home from school with a story about a girl who was an honors student, pretty, and popular; the other girls envied her.
But no one knew behind the scenes the issues she had at home. This was supposed to make the girls feel better about themselves!

I hear this all the time including on this thread: I am rich but you wouldn't want my life because of health issues. I heard you are going to _____; I never get to go on vacation. What does one thing have to do with the other?

I tried to explain to my daughter the story and the attitude were wrong. That another was an honors student, pretty, and popular had nothing to do with any other students. That she had problems is not a way to make others feel better about themselves. It is just plain wrong to teach girls this. Demean others, so you can feel better about your lot is not the message I want my children getting.

This constant comparisons demeans both parties. That you want to make yourselves feel better because someone has issues is not a way to actually make you feel better about yourself. How does that help you?

Not everyone wants what others have. A grand house doesn't speak to me except as a good investment and as an item to make my family happy. There are dozens of productive things I would rather do than supervise and maintain a home. I wish everyone well and am glad that I can see the good and I don't look for the bad as a way to measure myself.

I don't know if it is social media or the schools that are promoting this hyper-comparision envy jealous way of life. It is the rat race in overdrive.


Is it only in the frum world that you see this?
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 9:19 am
I also don’t like to have hired people in my house all the time, so I just have less household help. It’s not that complicated.
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creditcards




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 9:28 am
Squishy wrote:
The constant comparing yourself to others is a sad part of the frum world.

My daughter came home from school with a story about a girl who was an honors student, pretty, and popular; the other girls envied her.
But no one knew behind the scenes the issues she had at home. This was supposed to make the girls feel better about themselves!

I hear this all the time including on this thread: I am rich but you wouldn't want my life because of health issues. I heard you are going to _____; I never get to go on vacation. What does one thing have to do with the other?

I tried to explain to my daughter the story and the attitude were wrong. That another was an honors student, pretty, and popular had nothing to do with any other students. That she had problems is not a way to make others feel better about themselves. It is just plain wrong to teach girls this. Demean others, so you can feel better about your lot is not the message I want my children getting.

This constant comparisons demeans both parties. That you want to make yourselves feel better because someone has issues is not a way to actually make you feel better about yourself. How does that help you?

Not everyone wants what others have. A grand house doesn't speak to me except as a good investment and as an item to make my family happy. There are dozens of productive things I would rather do than supervise and maintain a home. I wish everyone well and am glad that I can see the good and I don't look for the bad as a way to measure myself.

I don't know if it is social media or the schools that are promoting this hyper-comparision envy jealous way of life. It is the rat race in overdrive.


It's natural part of nature to compare. It's just a fact that you feel better when you see other people are suffering just like you. You can't fight with natural feelings.
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