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S/O of rich: Mo' money, mo' problems?
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 12:05 pm
cbsp wrote:
Yes, I believe so.
Look at all the threads of people who earn (what I consider a "comfortable" income) who are limiting the number of children they have because then they won't be able to afford all the extras that each child "needs" - suddenly luxuries (yogurt daily, water bottles) become necessities and that adds up. Plus now you're paying full tuition, higher taxes, health insurance...


Lol yogurt and water bottles is not what adds up, it’s the tuition!
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 12:06 pm
cbsp wrote:
Yes, I believe so.
Look at all the threads of people who earn (what I consider a "comfortable" income) who are limiting the number of children they have because then they won't be able to afford all the extras that each child "needs" - suddenly luxuries (yogurt daily, water bottles) become necessities and that adds up. Plus now you're paying full tuition, higher taxes, health insurance...

Daily yogurt and water bottles are luxuries? Wasn’t aware of that
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allthingsblue




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 12:06 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
DH and I discussed this last night. He quoted "marbeh nechasim, marbeh de'agah". So I asked him, so why do you buy a lottery ticket? He said - that's because I don't have enough emunah in chazal.

Personally, I never wanted to be rich, but I do want to be comfortable. I just wonder... it says in koheles that the soul is never satiated. And that those who have 100 want 200, those that have 200 want 400. Does that mean that if I were to start making $500,000 a year, I would say, oh, that's nothing, I really need a million? Or would I really be ok with $500,000 a year? Because to me right now, I honestly think that would be enough for me. Am I fooling myself?


Unless you would actively work on yourself, you'd probably want more.
(You'd want money saved away for each of your kids, grandkids, every year of retirement, for emergencies, for disaster ch"v, you want that amount of liquid cash in addition to your assets, etc etc etc)
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 12:15 pm
Alternative wrote:
If you lived in a 25 000 ft home, that would be your choice. It would place you among the very top percentile of square footage in homes in most places in the world. I assume that most ladies who live in such homes do not supervise their staff all day long. There is someone who does that. And they likely have their own private suite which isn't cleaned and intruded upon every single day.
If you live in a regular 3500 square foot large home, then you still have lots of choices if you have money. You do not need to have it cleaned for 9 hours every day. Nothing will happen if the windows do not gleam or the floors have a bit of dust.
Or you could just move to a more modest home. Always an option.
Again, choices, choices, choices. The privilege of the wealthy. You CHOOSE to live in a huge house, and you CHOOSE to maintain it spic and span, and you have the means to do so.
You can hardly blame us for not empathisizing with the ensuing lack of privacy. It's like someone who chooses to have a personal trainer come in every single day because she wants to be superfit, complaining that it's such a bother.


I was hosted at a billionaire's apartment. They had maid service every 6 hours to empty garbage cans, straighten up, etc. When I went into the shower, someone came in through a servants' entrance and removed my dirty clothes and placed towels on the warmer. My underwear was cleaned and came back to me on a special hanger. I imagine they have much less privacy than I do.

There are two spouses involved in decisions as to whether the home should be tidy gleaming or not. Some can live in a certain state of disarray. Others can't.
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creditcards




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 12:23 pm
Squishy wrote:
I was hosted at a billionaire's apartment. They had maid service every 6 hours to empty garbage cans, straighten up, etc. When I went into the shower, someone came in through a servants' entrance and removed my dirty clothes and placed towels on the warmer. My underwear was cleaned and came back to me on a special hanger. I imagine they have much less privacy than I do.

There are two spouses involved in decisions as to whether the home should be tidy gleaming or not. Some can live in a certain state of disarray. Others can't.


My husband can't stand my messy house. He also can't stand that my kids eat scrambled eggs for supper a few times a week. Plus plenty more. Its just to bad for him. He has to live with it.
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Alternative




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 12:27 pm
Squishy wrote:


There are two spouses involved in decisions as to whether the home should be tidy gleaming or not. Some can live in a certain state of disarray. Others can't.


Okay, but this is a problem for everyone, not limited to the rich. We are discussing the problems of the rich.
If you have a poor couple with opposing ideas on cleanliness, things would be much worse. There would be no cleaning lady to supervise. They'd have to fight it out, as to who would be scrubbing toilets 24/7.
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farm




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 1:06 pm
amother wrote:
this thread makes me sad.

simple question: do you believe in chazal, yes or no? if no, then sure. go be rich. if yes, chazal are REPLETE with references to the idea that "mo' money, mo' problems".

there are so many places where chazal emphasize how money drags a person away from his enjoyment in olam HAZEH, AND in olam habah. so it's bad in both worlds. now by all means, feel free to sell whatever propaganda you want on this website. it's a free country. tell me how times have changed. chazal were talking to a different dor. same tune, different topic.

but, but, IF you believe in chazal's wisdom, and that they had divine understanding of human psychology, as the vilna gaon, the steipler, the chazon ish, rav yisrael salanter, and COUNTLESS others testify to, then it's simple. chazal said it, so it's true.

work on trusting in chazal's wisdom, then you wont have to wonder if it's true.

yissachar and zevulun, say chazal, split their olam habah equally. rav yisrael salanter asks (I apologize, it might have been the alter. I heard this stuff at the shabbos table at a discussion some years ago) if they split olam habah equally, then what is the benefit of all of yissachars toil in torah? isn't toil in torah supposed to be the ultimate thing? he answers: in the next world they are equal, but not in this world. zevulun has the olam habah, but yissachar gets the olam habah AND the olam hazeh.

when rav yosef yoizel became the alter of novaradok he sold his business at a massive loss, because he said it is impossible to experience true bitachon while one is wealthy beyond the necessary means upon which to live.

one of the late acharonim once remarked (I forget who) that if you look at the machlokes in torah between the ketzos and nesivos, we usually pasken like the ketzos, or at least more often than the nesivos. he said, this was because the nesivos was wealthy, and therefore did not have to struggle as much in torah. because the ketzos was poor, he had to rely on hashem more, and was thus zoche to more siyata dishmaya in learning.

the chofetz chaim, when he ran the general store he and his wife owned, was meticulous to immediately close the store as soon as they made enough money for the day, so he would not have extra money. because the people of radin wanted the great zechus of supporting the chofetz chaim's business, they would rush to get there before he closed, this would often mean his store was only open an hour or two a day!

rav yisrael salanter once heard his wife bought a lottery ticket. he wanted to return it, but was told there was no mechanism for doing so, because no one ever wanted to. he immediately convened a bais din and made a neder that any winnings garnered from the ticket should be hefker.

were all these people idiots? I hope you answered god forbid. if not, check your value system.

in any case, there are plenty of places in gemara where reference to this is made as well, even if I cant remember any at the moment.

even if I cant remember the exact place I do remember a chazal who talk about a posuk that says, and im paraphrasing because its late and I dont remember, "the rich man suffers, and the poor man cries out to hashem" chazal interpret the posuk to mean, both the poor and the rich suffer equally in this world, but the poor man instinctively understands to cry out to hashem, which alleviates his pain, since reliance on hashem relieves one of worry and stress, and the rich man does not have that instinct.

the chovos halevovos makes a similar point in shaar habitachon, and many of the other mussar seforim do as well.

but I suppose the best reference might be shlomo hamelech. if I recall, he said of wealth and all its trappings in this world, "hevel havalim hakol hevel" and סוף דבר הכל נשמע את־האלהים ירא ואת־מצותיו שמור כי־זה כל־האדם. and if you dont trust him, I have nothing more to say.

so yes, "mo money mo problems", this is definitely true.

Hmmm. The same chazal formulated our tefillos with request after request for parnassa, osher, bounty 'ad bli dai'
Fill our storehouses, give us livelihood close to home, we should have red eyes and white teeth from all the abundance of wine and milk, etc
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pizzapie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 1:09 pm
Im not really sure why this has become an 8 page long thread. I haven't read one response that admits to someone secretly wishing poverty on themselves...
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 1:18 pm
creditcards wrote:
My husband can't stand my messy house. He also can't stand that my kids eat scrambled eggs for supper a few times a week. Plus plenty more. Its just to bad for him. He has to live with it.


There's different dynamics in every marriage. My husband would clean the house and tell me to get takeout. He would help me select easy to prepare dinners if money were the issue.

We had tougher times financially and he never criticized my housekeeping or lack thereof. He just does things himself.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 1:24 pm
Alternative wrote:
Okay, but this is a problem for everyone, not limited to the rich. We are discussing the problems of the rich.
If you have a poor couple with opposing ideas on cleanliness, things would be much worse. There would be no cleaning lady to supervise. They'd have to fight it out, as to who would be scrubbing toilets 24/7.


Absolutely. I was saying there are different wants and needs between partners in response to suggestions of downsizing. I am part of a family and can't make unilateral decisions.
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amother
Chocolate


 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 1:55 pm
I was recently discussing something similar with a friend.
first of all, I have always learned "marbeh nechasim, marbeh da'agah" as having more material things- so for example, more expensive car you worry more about it getting scratched and it is more expensive to fix, or you will worry more riding the subway wearing a diamond ring than if you were without jewelry, you have more worldly possessions it takes more of your attention and worry, etc. You have a fancier house and everything is custom so you dont let the kids touch anything and you have to upkeep it more and you need to customize and you are always worried about it getting ruined. (not that you have more money in the bank to use to make your life easier or give tzedakah... although if you had in your possession more money, you are worried that someone will steal it or kidnap you for ransom, etc.)

In addition, a bunch of things are getting conflated here. I think the concept of You can't buy happiness is very true and that money and material objects does NOT make you happier. A wealthier household is by no means a happier one. I observe this first hand often.
Real poverty where a person cannot afford the basics and cannot support their family- give them food, a roof over their head, and love and in our jewish world, send them to school, will create a lot of tension and difficulties.
but wealth and giving a child everything he wants, more stuff, more vacations, more high end everything, etc, does absolutely not give a child a better or happier childhood.
It also depends on perspectives and priorities, on whether luxuries become necessities which create new stress and difficulty.
True that if the same two families were going through a medical crisis and one had all the money in the world to spend on everything possible to help the situation and the other was struggling, the stress of part of the situation will be different, but do you know if it will actually make the person happier? No, because maybe they are always used to money taking care of those things and they dont even realize what a bracha it is or that it helped the situation while the other poorer person got help from the community and was able to appreciate their place in the community and the chessesd, ettc
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amother
Chocolate


 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 2:02 pm
The people that I know who had gilded childhoods living in mansions with fancy disney and cruise vacations and tennis and golf lessons and cars when they turn 17 and everything they can ever want, are in no way happier than those who grew up with much less- (again, normal situations, not abuse or neglect in both sides of the coin), and if anything they are used to a certain kind of lifestyle which, when you get married, you are not yet established enough to maintain, so either you are supported and enmeshed with the wealthy parents/in laws, or you are struggling to maintain a certain lifestyle and feel deprived with the more "regular" standards that you live with now.

money can be a very useful and helpful tool but the pursuit of money to bring happiness is just flawed. Pursuit of money to support your family in a respectable way is one thing, but more than that is no guarantee whatsoever for happiness- and this is without any major health or emotional crisis even entering the picture.
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amother
Chocolate


 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 2:08 pm
So I think the inherent "problems" of the rich are not related to having to maintain a bigger house or have full time help, those are not problems at all- but rather rather emotional and value focused, believing that money brings happiness or security, raising children with certain expectations and norms, not being empathetic to others, lacking responsibility, etc, and the difficulties it brings if you either lose your money, and need to live a lower lifestyle or if the children require a similar lifestyle that has become the norm but is not sustainable.
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cbsp




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 2:25 pm
Zehava wrote:
Daily yogurt and water bottles are luxuries? Wasn’t aware of that


I was only being half facetious (I tried putting quotes) but yes, there have been threads about both of those

http://www.imamother.com/forum.....19539


http://www.imamother.com/forum.....26817

The reason the yogurt thread caught my eye initially had to do with a conversation with a cousin who had recently moved back from EY. She was having a hard time adjusting to life in the states. Her example was yogurt, an item that was a treat for Shabbos in EY was a normal breakfast item here. The little "luxuries" that they were so appreciative of there were considered standard needs here and the bills were piling up. And they live a pretty bare bones life, so it's not like they went radical with an opulent lifestyle.

I still believe that someone with several children living a frum life will find that a 500K pre-tax will leave them feeling a pinch.

(this is not addressing the original question of more $ more problems. This was only addressing the poster who didn't think she'd be wanting more of she got the 500K paycheck)
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 2:29 pm
Squishy wrote:
It is. What you, Raisin and Mommy2b2c are missing is that the help is a necessity. It is not optional. If someone is not there, it would be me doing the work. As it is, I do a lot of work in my house. You can't get the job done in less time than is allocated for it. Believe me, I don't like spending money on the help either.

I don't live in a 25,000 ft home, nor is my homies close tu that size. But if I did, would you still be saying get less help? A home that size would need 2 full time people at minimum.

What works in your house does not work in all houses.


I consider my help a necessity. I’m still not sure how she would become a burden.
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amother
Cobalt


 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 2:33 pm
Zehava wrote:
Daily yogurt and water bottles are luxuries? Wasn’t aware of that

now you see how out of touch you are with what us poorer folks go through...
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 2:52 pm
Raisin wrote:
You can hire teams of 2 or 3 people who come and do it all in 2 hours. Those type of professional companies don't usually need feeding as well. (probably a more expensive option but peace of mind is important too)


That actually is what we have thanks Smile I just prefer to have less babysitting and cleaning help even if it means I have to work harder, especially when I am at home, so I can totally let my guard down.
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 3:24 pm
amother wrote:
now you see how out of touch you are with what us poorer folks go through...

Well ofcourse there is always going to be someone poorer than me which I guess you can say I’m out of touch with?
I mean even when you get to the dirt poor in America they are probably out of touch with what poor children in Africa go through.
I did not grow up rich by any stretch of the imagination but being Hungarian there was the mentality that you don’t scrimp on food.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 3:41 pm
Squishy wrote:
It is. What you, Raisin and Mommy2b2c are missing is that the help is a necessity. It is not optional. If someone is not there, it would be me doing the work. As it is, I do a lot of work in my house. You can't get the job done in less time than is allocated for it. Believe me, I don't like spending money on the help either.

I don't live in a 25,000 ft home, nor is my homies close tu that size. But if I did, would you still be saying get less help? A home that size would need 2 full time people at minimum.

What works in your house does not work in all houses.


So do what I suggested and get a cleaning crew who comes 3 mornings a week. You don't have toddlers or 10 teenagers making mess, so I assume most of the work is cleaning, dusting, vaccuming, not tidying up. That doesn't need doing daily.

Unless you happen to be the queen of england or Melania Trump, why would you need to live in a 25000 sq foot house? Nobody needs that.

I actually agree with you in that I would really dislike having full time help in my house. I have my cleaning lady come in the afternoon when the kids are home from school so I have the house to myself all day.
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browser




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 3:52 pm
I once read an article about the relationship between wealth and happiness. Up until a certain point of course a person is happier that he does not have to worry about basic needs, has extra money for some luxeries, and has savings. But then there reaches a point if diminishing returns where more money does not equal more happiness. A person may then try to buy happiness without realizing that more physical things will never fulfill him.
Also I think the language more money more worry implies someone who is always looking for more. Like the opposite of sameach bchelko.
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