Do you find this profile of Judge Rachel Freier inspiring

tichellady

Tue, Nov 21 2017, 3:38 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Right. So, as far as I know, women cannot have positions of power, or as you say, cannot be in a position to receive the "deference traditionally accorded to male rabbis", in Orthodox Judaism. Like I said, if you would like things to be different, you would have to go outside of the framework of Orthodox Judaism. Again, as far as I know.

This is an extremely weak halakhic argument. There are reasons why orthodoxy has not embraced female clergy yet but this argument about power and authority makes no sense.

Fox

Tue, Nov 21 2017, 3:45 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

Aren't you one of the posters who is against everything being so PC? So now there can't be an article about a successful career woman who would be noteworthy in any community, but is more so in her own, because that implicitly demeans SAHMs and the womanly arts? So we should never praise anyone, especially a woman, because others will feel hurt then.

Huh? I don't recall saying anything about demeaning SAHMs.

My points are as follows:

1. The NYT article is shockingly bigoted, and I'm amazed that a contemporary news outlet can get away with such obvious prejudice and such facile analysis. Moreover, this is a failing that has been pointed out for some time and that the executive editor, Dean Baquet, has openly admitted. I guess what actually shocks me is not the coverage itself, but that there is apparently a large audience of people who don't notice or actually agree.

2. Doing a non-traditional job is not, ipso facto, what makes someone interesting or inspiring. Judge Freier may indeed be both of those things, but we should be careful not to equate "inspiring," "interesting," and "non-traditional." We should be inspired and interested by more substantive elements of her story.

iluvy

Tue, Nov 21 2017, 3:49 pm

SpottedBanana wrote:

Asking respectfully: so if you, iluvy, can determine that some sources are "wrong" because they "were operating in a cursed and flawed world," what makes you believe that the very same chain of mesorah is to be trusted for halacha, if they were so susceptible to flaws in perspective?

(Obviously, I am not suggesting that each individual tanna, amora, rishon, and acharon was a perfect person, but I question why someone would be frum if they don't believe that the crux of the mesorah is flawless and unchanging. And yes, I believe that while women serving men is a curse, it is still the framework for marriage we are meant to have, as shown by the midrash of the sun and the moon, two kings cannot wear one crown etc.)

Rashi says that if your leaders say that left is right and right is left, you should still follow them.

He is clearly saying that chazal can be wrong. They can be so wrong that they state that right is left and left is right! But we still have to follow their piskei halacha. We do not believe that chazal were infallible unbiased conduits of pure Torah. (Infallible is NOT a Jewish word!) We don't believe that Torah is in the sky. Our avodah is to follow halacha as it is passed down to us.

What this means for me is that I follow halacha, but I don't have to believe that women are inferior just because the Maharal thought so.

I'm not sure how you can go from "curse" to "the framework we're meant to have." Do you believe that dying in childbirth is the ideal framework for having a child? That working the land with your hands is the ideal framework for making a living? The midrash of the sun and the moon clearly says that the ideal way Hashem wanted it to be was two great luminaries of equal size, and that this is the ideal way it will be l'asid lavo. Hashem says, "Bring a korban chataas for Me because I made the moon small."

sequoia

Tue, Nov 21 2017, 3:51 pm

Come on. That’s the definition of “news.”

The frum man who fought in the Ukrainian army is noteworthy because he’s the only frum Jew to do so. The headline “Frum Jew ignores war, continues learning in kollel in Dnepropetrovsk” wouldn’t be interesting.

Or “Ivy League grad enters law school.”

Or “Mother of six sells Mary Kay as a side gig.”

Newspapers write about what is unusual.

Fox

Tue, Nov 21 2017, 3:58 pm

sequoia wrote:

Not sure who you were responding to, but obviously, news outlets cover "man bites dog" stories.

I would expect a news outlet to cover Judge Freier as a human interest story. It would be nice if they could be a little more sophisticated and less provincial in how they do it. I can think of plenty of questions that would be more interesting and revealing.

The issue isn't that the NYT thinks Judge Freier's non-traditional job is what makes her interesting or inspiring. The issue is that we shouldn't buy into their values.

tichellady

Tue, Nov 21 2017, 4:14 pm

SpottedBanana wrote:

The halakhic system isn’t about being flawless. If Gd wanted it to be flawless, he wouldn’t have left the oral law to mankind. Have you ever learned the story of the tanor shel achnai?

I have never met any orthodox couples where the man is the boss. Do we live on different planets??? And for those of you who think that a wife needs to be subservient to her husband, do you also think a man must work in order to fulfill adam’s curse?

cbsp

Tue, Nov 21 2017, 4:33 pm

iluvy wrote:

Rashi says that if your leaders say that left is right and right is left, you should still follow them.

He is clearly saying that chazal can be wrong.

Not so clear. Note that it doesn't say to follow the leader if he is saying up is down or wrong is right. Many interpret that statement to mean that the reason you may think the leader is saying right is left is because you're facing the wrong way (so to speak). (I heard the above from a YU musmach)

amother

Seagreen

Tue, Nov 21 2017, 4:52 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

But she held down a job, went to college, and baked challah in her spare time. All while her children were growing up. Do you that this is realistic?

Um, I'm doing all that. As a single mom. I want to, though. Most people I know think I'm a bit nuts.

Full disclosure: I get my cake from the grocery (can't afford bakery cake lol) but I bake my own challah, more often than not.

Yay me.

I think we should stop comparing, and simply allow each other to do what we are good at, whether it's traditionally female or otherwise. Whether we are "really" chassidish or not.

iluvy

Tue, Nov 21 2017, 5:05 pm

cbsp wrote:

That's a cute answer, but notice that the lashon isn't "If your leaders say that what you think is right is really left, and what you think is left is really right..."

At most, you can say it means that there may be several equally correct and valid perspectives, including ones that are the opposite of what your leaders say. (Someone facing the other way is not "wrong" about left and right.)

amother

Pearl

Tue, Nov 21 2017, 8:40 pm

amother wrote:

Hi fellow Montrealer! I know Mindy well and she is indeed a remarkable woman. Other frum communities around the world who are struggling to live harmoniously with their neighbours can learn from the amazing work of our local askanim.

I grew up with Mindy too but dont live there any more. I'm curious to know how the majority of the chassidishe community is viewing her. Do they support her or look at her as some kind of rebel?

amother

Mistyrose

Tue, Nov 21 2017, 8:54 pm

amother wrote:

I grew up with Mindy too but dont live there any more. I'm curious to know how the majority of the chassidishe community is viewing her. Do they support her or look at her as some kind of rebel?

We likely know each other then! When she ran in 2013, she was supported by everyone except Satmar. This time, everyone backed her. She has remained consistently dignified and professional and is an exceptional ambassador for our community.

amother

Pearl

Tue, Nov 21 2017, 9:01 pm

amother wrote:

I was in her bunk in day camp lol. What about on a personal level, political interests aside? Do people respect her or see her as a weirdo? So happy to hear that she's being backed though Smile

Seems she's doing phenomenal work. I'm honored to know her.

amother

Mistyrose

Tue, Nov 21 2017, 9:08 pm

amother wrote:

I was in her bunk in day camp lol. What about on a personal level, political interests aside? Do people respect her or see her as a weirdo? So happy to hear that she's being backed though Smile

Seems she's doing phenomenal work. I'm honored to know her.

Not at all viewed as rebellious or weird! To the contrary, she is respected and admired.

Mommyg8

Tue, Nov 21 2017, 9:19 pm

tichellady wrote:

This is an extremely weak halakhic argument. There are reasons why orthodoxy has not embraced female clergy yet but this argument about power and authority makes no sense.

Halachically, at least as far as I know, I woman cannot have a position of power over a man. For example, a woman can't be a boss in a company with men under her. Maybe Rabbanim today have found a heter, but this is what I heard.

In any case, it really doesn't matter what you or I think is a strong or weak position halachically, the facts are that women rabbis are not accepted in Orthodox Judaism.

sima

Wed, Nov 22 2017, 12:01 pm

I think it's great!!! Certainly not the norm. She went to college after her husband completed his degree (also not the norm in Bobov). She felt like then "it was her turn". Good for her. But how many people (in those communities) have the support from spouses and family to do such a thing.
It also helps to be financially comfortable. I'm sure her life working, and in college, and raising a family were hectic, and she most likely had help be in in the form of childcare, housekeeping, etc.

But the bottom line is, I think it's great. Hopefully, more like this in the future but I doubt it.