Are there an equal percentage of "Frum" Zexual Perverts?

amother

Copper

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 1:34 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Yes, it would be a marriage issue. Which might impact his life, maybe? Cause him to have his wife angry, he gets depressed, if he would get divorced it would be very embarrassing, so it would be affecting... his day to day living. Which is the criteria for addiction.

Yeah, your totally off base. In order for it to be an addiction, the individual needs to have attempted to stop and failed repeatedly, have a compulsive drive and /or obsessive thoughts about acting out, and affect his performance in daily life activities such as work, relationships, leisure, etc. Due to the extensive acting out behaviors and the amount of time and energy needed to feed the addiction.

I'm not sure your example fits the above criteria.

Mommyg8

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 1:42 am

marina wrote:

Addiction is not defined by what upsets your wife.

It's senseless to even continue this discussion. All the best.

Marina, really? How exactly do you think mental illness is defined?

I'll give you an example. Someone has OCD. A real mental illness, right? So, how would this be diagnosed? His wife would say - he does x,y, and z. They have to use other people's word for it, how else would it be diagnosed?

And in any case, I'm not sure how addiction suddenly became a mental illness. Someone can be addicted to cigarettes, do they have a mental illness?

The definition of addiction is that it is impacting your life, and you can't stop. So, cigarettes is harmful to his health, and he tries to stop, but can't. He has an addiction.

Mr. X watches [filth] every night. Mrs. X is very upset. This can lead to divorce, which would be very upsetting to Mr. X, especially living in his sheltered, frum community. He is also embarrassed that someone might find out (let's say this was years ago, before the internet, and it was assumed that nobody watched [filth]). He can't stop, even though he tries. Mr. X has an addiction. He would not have an addiction if he does NOT try to stop - as he feels his wife is over-reacting. In that case he would NOT have an addiction. So, obviously, it's dependent on the fact that he's a frum person, who lives so to speak, in a fishbowl.

Another example as to how environment has an impact on diagnosis - Mr. X thinks he has OCD. He washes his hands whenever he wakes up, and every time he touches a part of his body! But, if he's frum - he does not have OCD, just following halacha. If he would not be frum, this would be OCD.

People don't live in sanitary bubbles. People live in social systems which have different cultural expectations, depending on what their environment is like.

amother

Goldenrod

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 1:42 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

And as for those that say that everyone is really cheating, but I'm just naive - I'm really curious how all these huge percentage of people who are supposedly cheating, in my community, are able to hush this up so well that I don't even hear a word?

They're all going to harlots? And they're all cheating in other ways? What about the women? Are they cheating as well? Because statistically, in the non-Jewish world, women are just as likely to cheat as men. Are these statistics real for us as well? Did one out of three imamothers cheat at one point in their lives? What do you think?

And how are all my friends' husbands able to hide this SO well from their wives? Their friends? And no-one knows? Really?

Because you just don't know. My divorce lawyer told me he had worked with frum women whose kids weren't their husbands. (He told me to make me aware that he respects confidentiality, but some things impact halacha and he'd have to tell, not to be a gossip). It's often hushed because people do not talk about it. People who cheat in frum communities do not tell their friends that they're cheating. No one sees them openly flirting with a friend or co-worker. They don't risk things like telling one person. Often affairs with non Jews get revealed by a friend or co-worker. So many frum women don't find out and when they do, some divorce. And some don't. In our circles it is shameful and embarrassing to go around and say my husband cheated and had an affair. It's not something that is ever talked about. In the secular world people will openly say, my husband cheated on me. In the frum circles, People keep things hidden. No one talks about s-xual things outright ever.

And yes frum women also cheat. I wouldn't say 1 in 3. But it does happen. I think less so due to fear of the consequences since they're much worse in our community and there's more to lose than in the non-jewish world. And also out of feeling so guilty about tznius and shame.

People can hide things from their wives and friends. They can keep a secret. People hide everything going on in their life. You never know what people are going through until after the fact. You're expecting that they act blatantly different in an obvious way. In our busy lifestyles with kids and jobs and stresses, no one has time to notice if someone is a little more distant. The husband or wife can easily pretend they're tired or stressed.

You can believe what you want. And everyone will believe what they want. There's no proof. We don't have numbers. Is it as prevalent as in the secular world? Probably not. But is it that rare that you can't believe it happens as frequently as it does? It happens way more than most people believe. No divorce lawyers or rabbis are giving out numbers. But it's a lot more common than people think.

Mommyg8

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 1:43 am

amother wrote:

So the word addiction does not apply to cigarettes?

amother

Babyblue

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 1:45 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

I'm not sure what growing up secular has to do with this - and I don't watch movies or see the news. I'm working with people. Real people. That's where my data is coming from.

And, I'm completely not sure what niddah has to do with anything - if you're already sleeping with someone who is not your husband, does it matter if you're a niddah????

And Lakewood, where I live, is very definitely not one out of four. We live close together, and we would know.

As for a frum woman willing to forgive a cheater - again, where's your data? I wouldn't, neither would any of my friends, as far as I know... And a s*x addict in the frum community, would be considered "normal" in the outside community. I'm talking about p*rn addiction, which is what they are usually talking about. How would you even define p*rn addiction in the secular world?

I think it's so funny that people think that the entire s*x industry is being supported by Chassidim and RW frum Jews... No, not.

Ummmm, seriously? Do you actually know any s#x addicts and how they got their diagnosis? I know many, and no, a s#x addict in the frum community would absolutely NOT be considered "normal" in the outside community. Did you read about the person (on imamother) whose dh touched self to [filth] several hours daily, despite it causing himself to bleed? Do you really think that's considered normal outside the frum community because it's "just [filth]?" And despite what you think, many (probably most) people diagnosed with SA are engaged in more than "just [filth]"

There's more than one criteria necessary for getting the diagnosis (although yes, the one you mention about it interfering with their life is one of them, it's not the only one).

Mommyg8

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 1:48 am

amother wrote:

Trust me, someone who watches [filth] daily in the frum community will fit all this criteria. At least, definitely in the RW community that I live. Unless he personally thinks that what he is doing is no big deal, which is probably happening more and more nowadays.

Maybe a once a day habit would have been shameful 30 years ago, this is what I am thinking...

Maybe nowadays, the criteria has changed. I guess it would probably need more than that nowadays.... in that case you're right, once a day would not be enough to be categorized as an addiction....

amother

Goldenrod

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 1:58 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

And Lakewood, where I live, is very definitely not one out of four. We live close together, and we would know.

So you mean to tell me that if I was your neighbor in Lakewood, since I live close to you, you would tell me that your husband has a s-x addiction or that he cheated on you or that you were cheating on him?!!! How on earth does living close together mean you know what's going on?! How many people do you not know that they were fighting until they're divorced? Or that their kid was sick until it's very bad? You don't know. Living close together is the stupidest reason I ever heard for knowing what goes on. So many people have fake double lives. Just because you see them everyday doesn't mean you know what's happening.

Mommyg8

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 1:58 am

amother wrote:

You know many s*x addicts... men? And you spoke to them about it? Really?

And ok, since you know so much, what is the percentage of s*x addicts who get diagnosed, who end up in SA? Do they all have the same symptoms? (I don't believe it, sorry). And what percentage of frum men have a s*x addiction? How did you get this data?

I was using my knowledge of people being diagnosed with other mental illnesses, and how they are diagnosed. I know that no mental health diagnosis is as simple as 2+2=4, I'm assuming this diagnosis has a similar process.

And, to go back to our original topic - many, if not most, non-Jewish men talk about s*x all day, and are obsessed by s*x, etc. No, it is not considered an addiction because it is considered normal behavior, I think that that was my original point.

Mommyg8

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 1:59 am

amother wrote:

So you mean to tell me that if I was your neighbor in Lakewood, since I live close to you, you would tell me that your husband has a relations addiction or that he cheated on you or that you were cheating on him?!!! How on earth does living close together mean you know what's going on?! How many people do you not know what they were fighting until they're divorced? Or that their kid was sick until it's very bad? You don't know. Living close together is the stupidest reason I ever heard for knowing what goes on. So many people have fake double lives. Just because you see them everyday doesn't mean you know what's happening.

You obviously don't live in Lakewood.

DrMom

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 2:37 am

Comparing recent Hollywood scandals and less recent (although stlll very numerous) sx scandals in the frum world, I think there are many factors which can make zxual harassment, affairs, pedophilia, etc more prevalent in any given subset of society:

- Opportunity (examples: communities in which spouses spend many days apart on business trips, communities in which countless nubile young underemployed actresses are at the mercy of powerful male casting directors, communities in which an unquestioned and respected rabbi is in charge of a cheder of many young boys, etc.)

- Secrecy, shame, and intimidation (examples: Actresses don't want to complain or they will get a reputation as being "hard to work with" and will find their audition call-backs suddenly drying up; A family doesn't want to cause a scandals because it will reduce their other children's chances of securing a good shidduch, etc.)

- Cultural misreadings (more of a factor with harassment, not full-blown affairs or molestation) - When one party is from a culture where only those who are intimate share any social contact, than any sign of friendliness or contact is misread as an invitation to intimacy.

marina

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 2:46 am

Quote:

And, to go back to our original topic - many, if not most, non-Jewish men talk about s*x all day, and are obsessed by s*x, etc. No, it is not considered an addiction because it is considered normal behavior, I think that that was my original point.

Quote:

Why in the world do you think I don't hold down a real job? With Jews and non-Jews? I have had multiple jobs, in multiple environments, but what does that have to do with anything?

Most of my jobs have been in places with mostly nonJewish people. Were my gentile male coworkers to talk about 5ex all day or be obsessed by it, they'd be fired, for a variety reasons.

In fact, I'm struggling to remember even one conversation related to 5ex that I had with a nonjewish male in the workplace. Going through the last 7 years, nothing comes to mind. Not one exchange. Maybe someone told an off color joke at a x-mas party? I can't even remember.

If you really think this is how the nonJewish world is, I can only conclude that you have not spent any normal amount of time there.

Mommyg8

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 2:47 am

marina wrote:

Quote:

Why in the world do you think I don't hold down a real job? With Jews and non-Jews? I have had multiple jobs, in multiple environments, but what does that have to do with anything?

Maybe you got lucky? Or maybe you are not working in New York? And maybe you're not working in a blue collar environment? Just a guess.

I don't know where you work, but it sounds like utopia. Can I come work there?

Because I seem to have really bad luck in my work environments.

Come to think of it, it's not just the guys, it's the subways, the advertisements - all completely obsessed by s*x. But maybe it's just New York. Hopefully.

Last edited by Mommyg8 on Sun, Nov 26 2017, 2:55 am; edited 2 times in total