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Are there an equal percentage of "Frum" Zexual Perverts?
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 26 2017, 2:50 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
Marina, really? How exactly do you think mental illness is defined?

I'll give you an example. Someone has OCD. A real mental illness, right? So, how would this be diagnosed? His wife would say - he does x,y, and z. They have to use other people's word for it, how else would it be diagnosed?

And in any case, I'm not sure how addiction suddenly became a mental illness. Someone can be addicted to cigarettes, do they have a mental illness?

The definition of addiction is that it is impacting your life, and you can't stop. So, cigarettes is harmful to his health, and he tries to stop, but can't. He has an addiction.

Mr. X watches [filth] every night. Mrs. X is very upset. This can lead to divorce, which would be very upsetting to Mr. X, especially living in his sheltered, frum community. He is also embarrassed that someone might find out (let's say this was years ago, before the internet, and it was assumed that nobody watched [filth]). He can't stop, even though he tries. Mr. X has an addiction. He would not have an addiction if he does NOT try to stop - as he feels his wife is over-reacting. In that case he would NOT have an addiction. So, obviously, it's dependent on the fact that he's a frum person, who lives so to speak, in a fishbowl.

Another example as to how environment has an impact on diagnosis - Mr. X thinks he has OCD. He washes his hands whenever he wakes up, and every time he touches a part of his body! But, if he's frum - he does not have OCD, just following halacha. If he would not be frum, this would be OCD.

People don't live in sanitary bubbles. People live in social systems which have different cultural expectations, depending on what their environment is like.


Ok, then your answer to the OP's question is yes. Frum people are more likely to suffer from s-xual addictions than everyone else, just because of the way you have just now defined addictions.

Not only is this clinically inaccurate, it also pathologizes a huge portion of frum men.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 26 2017, 2:53 am
amother wrote:
My divorce lawyer told me he had worked with frum women whose kids weren't their husbands. (He told me to make me aware that he respects confidentiality, but some things impact halacha and he'd have to tell, not to be a gossip).


I'm sure I am misunderstanding, but it sounds like you're suggesting your attorney would break attorney-client privilege for something that he thinks impacts halacha? That would be by far one of the most disturbing things I've read on this site.

That cannot possibly be what you mean, though, so plse clarify.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 26 2017, 2:59 am
marina wrote:
Ok, then your answer to the OP's question is yes. Frum people are more likely to suffer from s-xual addictions than everyone else, just because of the way you have just now defined addictions.

Not only is this clinically inaccurate, it also pathologizes a huge portion of frum men.


Are you saying that a huge portion of frum men watch [filth] once a day? Seriously?

Also, to clarify, it's only an addiction if someone tries to stop but can't. Someone who doesn't think it's an issue does not have an addiction (as he's not trying to stop). Also, an addiction by it's very nature tends to escalate, so it would not be once a day for too long, probably. So, in a sense, you're right.
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LovesHashem




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 26 2017, 3:10 am
I just want to know why someone would even believe for a second that the people who follow the blueprint of the universe have the same rate of issues of people who do not.

Torah changes people, at least whoever does it right. Let's assume most people do it right.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 26 2017, 3:30 am
LovesHashem wrote:
I just want to know why someone would even believe for a second that the people who follow the blueprint of the universe have the same rate of issues of people who do not.

Torah changes people, at least whoever does it right. Let's assume most people do it right.

Aye, there's the rub.
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LovesHashem




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 26 2017, 3:33 am
DrMom wrote:
Aye, there's the rub.


Was reffering to all the people who ae "frum on the outside" that multiple posters have brought up in this thread over and over again.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 26 2017, 3:38 am
LovesHashem wrote:
Was reffering to all the people who ae "frum on the outside" that multiple posters have brought up in this thread over and over again.

Yes, but all those "frum on the outside" people are part of frum society, like it or not. You can't exclude them from statistics.

In the secular world (at least in the West), marriage vows and laws generally include exclusivity to the marital relationship, yet some people do cheat. And zxual harassment is illegal, etc. But just as we don't exclude those rule-breakers from our statistics when looking at the secular world, we cannot exclude "frum on the outside" Jews from the statistics pertaining to the frum world.

Obviously, if EVERYONE in ALL sectors were following ALL the rules, this whole conversation would be moot.
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amother
Navy


 

Post Sun, Nov 26 2017, 3:59 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
Are you saying that a huge portion of frum men watch [filth] once a day? Seriously?

Also, to clarify, it's only an addiction if someone tries to stop but can't. Someone who doesn't think it's an issue does not have an addiction (as he's not trying to stop). Also, an addiction by it's very nature tends to escalate, so it would not be once a day for too long, probably. So, in a sense, you're right.


You obviously know nothing about addiction. One of its first and most stubborn symptoms is denial. Some of your posts are studies in contradiction, as is the mental health field you yourself mentioned. Suffice to say Dr. Patrick Carnes (who wrote the book on s-x addiction) is not Jewish.

Yet alas s-x addiction in the frum world is real, and fills way too many 12 step meeting rooms. I have personally known of hundreds over the years. This doesn't even include those too young, too shy, too scared, or too far above rock bottom to reach out for help.

The numbers are abysmal. And that's still before actual statistics.
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LovesHashem




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 26 2017, 4:02 am
DrMom wrote:
Yes, but all those "frum on the outside" people are part of frum society, like it or not. You can't exclude them from statistics.

In the secular world (at least in the West), marriage vows and laws generally include exclusivity to the marital relationship, yet some people do cheat. And zxual harassment is illegal, etc. But just as we don't exclude those rule-breakers from our statistics when looking at the secular world, we cannot exclude "frum on the outside" Jews from the statistics pertaining to the frum world.

Obviously, if EVERYONE in ALL sectors were following ALL the rules, this whole conversation would be moot.


Oh I'm not excluding them at all. I'm just saying that even WITH those people, we still have a lesser percentage.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 26 2017, 4:44 am
marina wrote:
Quote:
And, to go back to our original topic - many, if not most, non-Jewish men talk about s*x all day, and are obsessed by s*x, etc. No, it is not considered an addiction because it is considered normal behavior, I think that that was my original point.


Quote:
Why in the world do you think I don't hold down a real job? With Jews and non-Jews? I have had multiple jobs, in multiple environments, but what does that have to do with anything?


Most of my jobs have been in places with mostly nonJewish people. Were my gentile male coworkers to talk about 5ex all day or be obsessed by it, they'd be fired, for a variety reasons.

In fact, I'm struggling to remember even one conversation related to 5ex that I had with a nonjewish male in the workplace. Going through the last 7 years, nothing comes to mind. Not one exchange. Maybe someone told an off color joke at a x-mas party? I can't even remember.

If you really think this is how the nonJewish world is, I can only conclude that you have not spent any normal amount of time there.

I am inclined to agree with Marina on this one.

I have also worked in a variety of places in both the US (where the majority of my coworkers were non-Jewish) and Israel (where the majority of my coworkers are Jewish but not datim).

None of my male coworkers in either setting spoke about sx all day (!!). Such behavior would land him a quick trip to HR.

My jobs were all in engineering/science/biotech fields.

Did you (Mommy8) actually hold job where this was routine and accepted behavior among your male coworkers? In what industry/profession, if I may ask? I can understand how this may be true if you worked in a strip club or x-rated film production unit or a sx toy design studio, but it is not accepted behavior in most sectors of the workforce.
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amother
Honeydew


 

Post Sun, Nov 26 2017, 5:00 am
'Oh. Wow!!!!" 8 pages and still going strong on an absolute "verrrrrry important can't live without" subject. Rolling Eyes

UGH!!!!

OP, I hope you got what you wanted to reach by starting this disgusting thread.

Yes, it's enough that there are "dirty" people in the world who do despicable acts, unfortunately also amongst Jews - from all the different communities:
Do we REALLY have to enlarge the dirty picture and make it sensationally disgusting, more than it is already, by TAKING A POLL ON IT AMONGST JEWS???? and on a website that can go viral.
A real chillul Hashem, if you ask me!!!!

Yes, I know some will respond that those that do the disgusting acts are causing a chillul Hashem. And it's true.

But taking a poll on it - showing statistics (we all know that statistics aren't the absolute truth) and causing members to argue and YELL at each other over this thread, is an enormous chillul Hashem.

I'm beginning to think ...hmmm... that OP is a troll (perhaps a male) and out to cause trouble and bring shame on I/m and Jews.
shock shock shock shock
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 26 2017, 9:19 am
amother wrote:
So you mean to tell me that if I was your neighbor in Lakewood, since I live close to you, you would tell me that your husband has a s-x addiction or that he cheated on you or that you were cheating on him?!!! How on earth does living close together mean you know what's going on?! How many people do you not know that they were fighting until they're divorced? Or that their kid was sick until it's very bad? You don't know. Living close together is the stupidest reason I ever heard for knowing what goes on. So many people have fake double lives. Just because you see them everyday doesn't mean you know what's happening.


I know exactly zero people who surprised me with a divorce or a sick kid.

When you live in each other's kishkas, you know. You know because something isn't right. I haven't met any academy winning a actresses in the frum world. And if I don't know personally, it is not that hard to find out. But generally, something is known without asking. Even subtle changes in clothes, telegraph changes in behavior. Changes in affect are obvious if there are not outside distractions.

A couple of years ago, I had a reason to find out why someone in a financial position of power over me was acting strange towards me. He was not being a mench. After a bunch of inquiries, we were able to find out he and his wife were swingers. This was happening far from Monsey. The information also came far from Monsey. The frum world is small. The couple presented chassidish but their clothes were tweeked.

Another time, I heard a friend of mine in a different part of town had overnight dates. This was heard from friends in New Square whose sister lived across the street from my friend. I was able to warn her before her kids were kicked out of school. She was prepared when the inevitable school meeting was called. Again, the frum world is small. It is small town living in a big area.

When someone is withdrawing, then it is a signal that something is up. Usually, the something becomes obvious.

As far as not having data to back this up: I presented data. This was deemed not good because it was done by frum researchers. The outside is not going to be able to permeate a tight knit insular community to get the data, nor would they care to even initiate the research.

Our bubble really protects the kids. If they are not exposed to the internet, and they are not seeing things in real life, they can grow up innocent. Our children don't socialize during mixed events at school or outside of school. There are no health ed class distributing condoms, nor are the moms taking the daughters for birth control pills before marriage, yet we don't have teen pregnancies out of wedlock.

Dressing tznius does protect the teens from learning about their zexuality too early. The girls dress for each other. The are not dressing to attract boys. The boys know it is strict hands off the girls. There is no flirting or group dates either. When they get married, they get to open that Pandora's box together.

I have been against many of the rabbinical rules, but as I live in a frum community, I see they make sense for the children. I can tell which children watch TV and which ones are on the internet. We know which kids are at risk for drugs and premarital zex, and we can keep our kids away. A couple of times, I have been warned by the parents themselves.
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amother
Orange


 

Post Sun, Nov 26 2017, 10:27 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
Honestly, this conversation can only go around in circles. You say yes, I say no. You say yes, I say no. There is no hard data, so this is something that anyone can make up whatever they want.

But the rule of not cheating on your spouse in the secular world - you're kidding, right? Is this the 40% of adults who are actually married? Because all of them cheat. Both men and women.

I've worked with frum people and not frum people. The frum men, and I'm including MO men in this analysis, don't have casual friendships with women, they don't spend "alone" time with women, and there is no casual touch, either. This is not the case with the non-Jewish men and women, who, while they do have certain lines, supposedly, those lines are so fluid that you'd have to have extreme self control not to cross any of those lines, considering some of the situations they might find themselves in.

Look, anyone can believe anything they want. You can tell yourself that the laws of shomer negiah and shemiras ainayim and yichud don't protect us - you can make up any story you want, inside your head. But those of us who are living the real world know that these stories are just fairy tales. Our lifestyle does protect us. It just does.

I applaud Squishy for fearlessly stating the truth - that everything about our lives just makes us better people. We are definitely more moral. We just are.


You honestly believe that each and every person who isn’t a rw frum Jew cheats on his or her spouse?

That’s patently absurd.

I can say with 100% degree of certainty that my 4 childhood best friends have never cheated on their spouses. No that’s. It statistically significant, but it disproves your point.

I can also say with 100% degree of certainty that I know a woman who had a several year long affair with a frum man from Monsey. But only when his wife was Nidda. Disproving Squishy’s point.

I won’t argue percentages. Its impossible to know. And I don’t care if 18% of non religious men cheat, but only 11% of religious ones. Its still an issue.
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amother
Babyblue


 

Post Sun, Nov 26 2017, 10:30 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
You know many s*x addicts... men? And you spoke to them about it? Really?

And ok, since you know so much, what is the percentage of s*x addicts who get diagnosed, who end up in SA? Do they all have the same symptoms? (I don't believe it, sorry). And what percentage of frum men have a s*x addiction? How did you get this data?

I was using my knowledge of people being diagnosed with other mental illnesses, and how they are diagnosed. I know that no mental health diagnosis is as simple as 2+2=4, I'm assuming this diagnosis has a similar process.

And, to go back to our original topic - many, if not most, non-Jewish men talk about s*x all day, and are obsessed by s*x, etc. No, it is not considered an addiction because it is considered normal behavior, I think that that was my original point.


Yes, despite your skeptism, I know a lot of s#x addicts. They are all male. For whatever reason, I kind of have an "open house" for s#x addicts. I also have been on the spouses of SAs forum here for years, as well as guard your eyes, so I do have a lot of knowledge relating to s#x addiction.

As for your second paragraph... I never claimed to have any data so I'm not sure why you're questioning me. All I said (which I maintain) is that your statement that "frum men diagnosed as SA would be considered" normal" in the secular world" is false and demonstrates that you are probably not as knowledgeable about the criteria for diagnosis as you are claiming.
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amother
Orange


 

Post Sun, Nov 26 2017, 10:36 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
Maybe you got lucky? Or maybe you are not working in New York? And maybe you're not working in a blue collar environment? Just a guess.

I don't know where you work, but it sounds like utopia. Can I come work there?

Because I seem to have really bad luck in my work environments.

Come to think of it, it's not just the guys, it's the subways, the advertisements - all completely obsessed by s*x. But maybe it's just New York. Hopefully.


I work in NY. I’ve worked in male-dominated industries for more than 20 years. This has never been my experience.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 26 2017, 10:44 am
amother wrote:
You honestly believe that each and every person who isn’t a rw frum Jew cheats on his or her spouse?

That’s patently absurd.

I can say with 100% degree of certainty that my 4 childhood best friends have never cheated on their spouses. No that’s. It statistically significant, but it disproves your point.

I can also say with 100% degree of certainty that I know a woman who had a several year long affair with a frum man from Monsey. But only when his wife was Nidda. Disproving Squishy’s point.

I won’t argue percentages. Its impossible to know. And I don’t care if 18% of non religious men cheat, but only 11% of religious ones. Its still an issue.


How do you know that people don't know the cheating husband is a player? I know men who cheat now. As I said, little is a secret. I have been the recipient of passes from frum men when I was single and living outside the community as I mentioned earlier on this thread. Maybe because I have traveled around many blocks, I can recognize what's what.

But my point stands that the schmutz that other communities are exposed to isn't flaunted here. It boggles my mind you can't see that the children are protected from that.

There aren't any couples living without benefit of a halachic marriage. Most families are grounded by religious obligations.

Is it perfect? No. Is it the safest alternative? Absolutely!
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 26 2017, 11:46 am
amother wrote:
There are rules in the secular world too! No cheating on your spouse is a big one. Frum marriages don't have a monopoly on that one.


I was referring to the "fences" in place to keep people from crossing clear lines.

Sure, there will always be some people who break rules. The question here is, How effective are the fences?

They are not 100% effective, but it seems highly improbable that they are 0% effective, which seems to be what this argument is about.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 26 2017, 11:49 am
amother wrote:
I work in NY. I’ve worked in male-dominated industries for more than 20 years. This has never been my experience.


WHAT has not been your experience? I think this conversation is taking a bizarre turn. What are we talking about? Please define what is not your experience?
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 26 2017, 11:55 am
amother wrote:
Because you just don't know. My divorce lawyer told me he had worked with frum women whose kids weren't their husbands. (He told me to make me aware that he respects confidentiality, but some things impact halacha and he'd have to tell, not to be a gossip).


Of course, a divorce lawyer is more likely to know people who are involved in ugly divorces.
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amother
Orange


 

Post Sun, Nov 26 2017, 11:57 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
WHAT has not been your experience? I think this conversation is taking a bizarre turn. What are we talking about? Please define what is not your experience?


I was responding directly to you. You claim that all nonreligious men, and particularly nonreligious men in blue collar jobs, talk about Zex all day. I said that’s not my experience. If there’s any bizarre turn, it’s your contention.
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